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Again PanO didn't got it.....

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I would have personally passed on the TA bonus if all our TAGs would have cost 4 points more each. It's already not that easy to make a dual TAG list so with 8 points less, it would be a nightmare.
     
    daboarder likes this.
  2. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Another PanO buff. Imagine if they did that for every faction.
     
  3. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    You say that like the biggest winners weren't the avatar and sphinx.
     
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  4. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I think the biggest winner is the Tikbalang because it's cheap enough you can get 2 of them
     
  5. SpectralOwl

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    I'd say the Cutter actually comes out ahead; the MULTI HMG is better at taking out the extra TAGs running about than the Sphinx's Spitfire and the Avatar is still the same all-in-one-basket murder engine it always was, just with one more order for the enemy to hide from. Even the Uhlan profits due to its anti-armour weapon having more targets.
     
  6. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    So they had 75% chance to get it right...still, they failed that roll with B3...must have been reactive turn so they only got B1, and they played vanilla so got no link bonuses.
     
  7. Freki

    Freki Active Member

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    As a Nomad player I don't really agree. The Geckos and Xeodrons without a price increase really seem busted to me.
    The Iguana getting the price increase on the other side. I think this one will see as much table time in ITS11 as they did in ITS10.

    But overall, it is a shame they just keep using a ML to fix issues. One rule, and not a case by case review of the current cost / performance / proportion of players using the specific TAG to rebalance those things.
     
    Barrogh likes this.
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    It's the other way around actually.
    For Onyx the price increase really screws you over for trying to fit any other TAG in than the Sphinx. Before the Tactical Awareness changes, if you want to run decent 14-16 lists, that covers ARO, link and specialists, then you REALLY have to slim everything down to fit a Xeodron Red Fury to your list and regard him as an oversized HI, rather than a true TAG.

    This usually means that your unidron link can't take a plasma sniper and must use a missile launcher instead, there's no room for the K1 tinbot and you're lucky if you can even afford the FO upgrade.
    You must stick to a Nexus hacker and never the E-Drone etc. etc.
    My main point is, that on the rare occasastion I bring the Xeodron, anything between 1-3 points can and will easily break my lists, which is why I find the +4 points price increase disastrous.

    The Xeodrons are not strong enough to be used as main pieces in LI lists, so the only one really benefitting from this is the Sphinx, which is a TAG I already used for LI Onyx lists.
    I wish CB would have made the TA an option and not a mandatory thing on the profiles.

    Furthermore, Geckos and Xeodrons are disgustingly overpriced compared to so many units, so granting them a free TA would have been a band-aid fix, not busted by any means.
    There are simply so many units in this game that either cost the same or much less, and are either much MUCH more survivable or simple the same but for a much lower price, that it's not even funny to point out. This isn't even mentioning the fact that all the mentioned units are much better at Dodge, can Cautious Move, Immune to Possesion, can go Prone and much easier to repair/heal with re-rolls (Xeodron not included).


    upload_2019-9-4_13-34-32.png
     
    Cthulhu363, Lesh' and eciu like this.
  9. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    I'm going to strongly disagree here. The units you are refering to:
    - Miss a real third wound.
    - Can't be repaired whenever you want, you either heal from unconcious or do nothing.
    - Miss the specialist trait, therefore not being able to push buttons by themselves unlike the TAG pilots

    In my opinion ALL TAGS should pay for Tactical Awareness, there's no justification to give such skill for free. If someone tries to argue that "TAGs are weak" , guess what? at current HIs are also overcosted, therefore if all TAGs would get TAc Awar for free then Zuyong and Shang Ji should get their TacAwar profile options for free too.

    Actually, as you has suggested, Tac Awar should just be and additional optional profile for TAGs, so that the player chooses if the want to pay for that or not in order to fit the TAG better in the list.
     
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  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    They really don't though, only the Kriza who is arguably still more suvivable.

    This isn't true. Not in practice anyways. Your Gecko doesn't have access to re-rolls, which is also a thing that kills many Manned TAG's, so you're not wasting time repairing 1 wound, as you may end up wasting more time and precious orders. Furthermore, the Gecko is usually balls deep so when he's actually in need of repairs, you need too many orders to fetch him.

    This is never relevant to anything though because it isn't used.

    I totally agree, which is why I find it absurd that the good TAG's that didn't need the buff, gets it for free.
     
    Cthulhu363 likes this.
  11. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    You know why PanO did not get a price increase for their TAGs? Because otherwise the whining would habe been unbearable.

    They had to disguise it though, so all TAGs above the PanO-Threshold did not get the price increase ...
     
  12. Ender101

    Ender101 Member

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    I think offering Tactical Awareness across the board was heavy handed on CB's part.

    I’ve thought TAGs should be easier to play or at least more fun to play since I started the game when Icestorm dropped, so I’m happy to see CB experimenting with different ways to help TAGs generate value and generally be a bigger presence on the table without making them weapons of ultimate power.

    I would have liked to see this done on a case by case basis instead of strait across the board however, or with more flexibility regarding the points. For the lesser powered TAGs, did they really need to go up 4 points? Perhaps 0-2 on a case by case basis would have been better. Or instead of granting TA to every TAG, I’d rather have seen the more expensive TAGs get TA like they have now, while the others got a different buff, perhaps access to fireteams, a battle ravaged state as a pseudo structure point, or rebalanced point values.

    As a PanO player I’m excited to get my TAGs on the table and I have already scrapped my prepared list for my weekly gaming night next week to see what they can do. It seems very PanO that the TAGs would get something like TA. As a Nomads player I’m less enthused. Gekos seem more attractive, but the Iguana isn’t wearing this well. I’m not sure TA fits with their TAGs and how they operate truth be told, so I don’t think this will get more Nomad Robots on the table.

    I think experimentation is good in game design, and I applaud the effort, but in this case I think that more tweaks are absolutely needed.
     
  13. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    We would shed so many tears the Helots would drown.
     
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  14. Freki

    Freki Active Member

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    Thx, you are a strong veteran player and has a much deeper understanding of the game.
    Still I think the possibility of taking them as duo Tags with TA makes them a lot stronger at the same price point.

    I'll admit at the moment I am talking from a theory crafting point of view. Nonetheless as a CJC player, I find those Geckos the best way into LI lists.
     
  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    ITS is the unofficial official testbed for temporary patches to the game without commiting to them.
    If an extra rule sucks, you can remove it or change it one season later (Xenotech).
    If something is too bad you can buff it (see AD4, FAT1 for TAGs, FD1 for MI and now TA dor TAGs).
    This is how every PC game that has been successful and alive for a while handles things.
    You change the game and allow a slight imbalance on purpose, then fix it later if you went too far or double down on it if it didn't go far enough.
    Keeps the parts moving, changes established dynamics and causes an ever evolving metagame.
    Easy philosophy, hard to get right. You'll always risk pissing someone off.

    Technically speaking the cheap TAGs profit the most from free TA, since the raw point value gained is relatively higher.
    Mechanically the more expensive TAGs use the Orders better and benefit more... so it makes no sense to have them get it for free, while the others pay.
    Guess CB was a bit afraid of 12 Order Xeodron Haris or Gecko Duo lists and mainly looked at the technical relativism of Orders gained/cost point.
    Devs make mistakes and that for sure is one, for now I'm happy this is getting a field test in ITS to improve the game balance in N4.
     
    #35 Teslarod, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  16. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    You see a lot of Geckos around your neck of the woods?

    We do not in my part of the world.

    New Nomad players tend to pick them up, because the models are awesome, play them for a while, because they seem like they should work ok, then ditch them, because they are actually pretty trash for their cost (other options perform the same role at a lower cost, or do better things for the same cost).

    I'd LOVE to see Geckos on the table more often, and I think that they would have with free TacAware. With the points increase... well I guess we'll see but I don't see any of the local Nomad players jumping at the chance to add Geckos.

    Xeodrons... maybe they WOULD have been too much (especially that Haris) with free TacAware. But I'm less convinced that they would have been OP than I am that increasing their cost means that it's even less likely that I'll see them on the table.
     
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  17. Quehacesfede

    Quehacesfede Professional Catastrophiser

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    You bet. I don't even use TAGs, but if the price increment affected Pano TAGs, I would have bitched about it like there was no tomorrow.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  18. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    I mean, they did. All TAGs got Tactical Awareness, and not all of them got point increases.

    I just enjoy the fact that PanO dodged the increases, and I take it as a sign that CB wants PanO to slightly be the TAG faction. You're on the PanO subforum here; did you expect people not to be happy about it? Yeesh.

    I get that you're disappointed that non-TAGs didn't really get touched in other factions, but I'm not sure why you came here to complain about it.
     
  19. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    oh yeah, let's look at the list: uhh bolts being brought to an acceptable level and then theres uhh


    ummmm

    uhhhhh

    hmmmmm uh, this
     
  20. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
    Warcor

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    shhhh CB is reading! XD

    keep playing the tags... :D