I'm with you on the boarding shotgun infiltrators! I learned how great they are with Shasvastii Shrouded. A camo token that can get into it’s best range & surprise shot is devastating! It’s why i’ve been taking the Shasvastii Dazer because it’s already the BSG but now with the Dazer it’s fantastic! I’ve also used the BSG Guilang. Again if getting into 8”, surprise shot, then cancel out an mimetisim is awesome. Who needs a needs Ninja to kill Lt.?
Well my Ninja is in time out. She has failed me multiple times, getting stabbed by a puny Line Kazak (who she engaged in CC) and two missions, where I just wanted to use her as a button-pusher, she failed her crucial rolls. xD
So you agree the Liberto isn't an auto-include in every vanilla army? Because, again, that's all I'm saying. Give me a mission or set of missions. I'll give you a handful of vanilla Haqq lists that can't be improved with a Liberto. (Though to be honest, list building can be pretty subjective in the first place. I'm sure you'll say a Liberto would be better in place of something even though I'd also be sure you're wrong).
I’d much rather have 2 shots from a distance at +6, -3 for surprise, -3 for camo to the opponent, Damange 14, than the 1 die for CC wtih all it’s plust this and minus that, and Damage 12. Ya i know the whole crit thing and stuff. But it makes me feel better roling more than one.
I'm alittle confused by this statement. It feels like you're lumping a lot of really varied things together into one group here. You're talking about: Targets Dakini Links Kamau Links Flashpulse Bots? Zulu Cobras? Helot Militia? Shooters Libertos? Spektrs? Foxtrots? Just any Camo Skirmisher with a BSG? Weapons Light Shotguns? Chain Colts? Boarding Shotguns? Certain combinations of which are certainly true, but trying to run a Libertos into say a Helot Militia is a particularly strange circumstance for example.
Camo infiltrating shotguns are great until your opponents gets wise to them, like a lot of things. I've abused the Bandit one with the emaulers a lot, he's great. I think my opponents would reveal / sacrifice cheap defensive pieces to stop it (like helots / WB / their own cheap infiltrators), and they tend to spread out and layer AROs cleverly to get free discovers while something else more capable holds covering them from across the board now. Esp with strong long range MSV pieces that ignore the camo / mimetism etc. Or put mines in inconvienient spots in the line of advance etc Those among others seem ok counters. Facing a hard castle ARO if I reliably beat it I'd sometimes rather take the board control from it rather than sneak around is all. Double benefit there cause I get the board control it had then. I think it depends a lot on your meta / table set ups a fair bit. Dense tables with 'end zone' sparse deployments you're gonna run into shotgun ranges easier and devastate with them, for example.
Not really, with the Naga being better in every way, makes sense to be cheaper than something with a better gun, more stats across the board, real camo and full blown Infiltration... on top of some very useful Specialist options to unlock REMs and do missions (no DTW though). Which makes the comparison hyperbole in a less extreme manner than the Hac Tao one, but still makes it rather hard to assume you have the faintest idea what you're talking about and hurts the point. Don't get me wrong, we met and I'm pretty damn sure you do get the point. But how you're trying to do it makes it hard to tell apart from the usual anti Uprising idiot rambling on about how CB owes them 'reparations' one and a half years after the fact. Might just be you need to turn down the Danish thing a notch in written format or something. BTW I couldn't disagree more about the Libertos' use as an Active turn piece. If your list is planning to spend Orders on a Libertos turn 1 something went pretty wrong during listbuilding. Spending a few Orders to take advantage of a nice opportunity never gets old, especially since you have that one Irregular Order already. But pumping 5+ Orders into him? Hard to imagine there wasn't a guy with better rangebands/position/B4 gun/BS12&Mimemetism around who could be expected to get some more milage out of them than the Libertos. If people pump their Orders into a Libertos rather than AD troops, Dart, Guilang, TR Bots, Nisse or whatever else group 2 Orders usually end up being spent on, I'm probably not gonna have to be worried about losing that game to begin with. Danish curse strikes again I assume. TL:DR Libertos are too gud, people seem to agree, surprisingly all of them for once, plx nerf/fix in N4 CB.
Oh boi, my dude, this is farcry of quality from your last post. :/ If you literally have no faint idea how it compares to a Naga Minelayer, specifically that profile mentioned, and not the others... because the other profiles have literally nothing in common in both roles nor weapons, nor equipment then I would suspect you have no fucking clue to what you're talking about. Not the other way around LMAO. I have no idea what nonsens you've vomitted on the keyboard here and it appears you're simply just being reactionary and needed to type something to fill the post but it doesn't make a lick of sense. I'll buy you a beer the next time I'm in Germany and perhaps you can get your point across better. It's usually a bad sign when only forum meme users are the only ones upvoting your posts. This is equally a nonsens statement because I have never stated that my actual plan was revovled around attacking with him as a main piece, but Infinity is a complex game and if the situation arises I will merely capitalise on his power, if not use another piece. However, there's massive value in having a hard hitting piece to throw away and do as much damage as possible, only to use another strong piece the following round, while having lost nothing from losing the Libertos. I know you know this so why you would make such a statement is beyond me. Anyways, I'm not interested in a debate whether or not if he looks like a Naga to me or a Hardcase to others. Your TL:DR sums up this thread and anything else discussed here haven't really been relevant to the fact that the Libertos is too good of a unit.
The Naga is far better (sans the Chaincolt) in every way and costs more as it should be. The gap should be narrower, but while it has a similar role to the Naga it has as much in common with the Naga Minelayer as the Naga AHD with the Posthuman AHD (where things are truly fucked considering the PH is better AND cheaper lmao). Sure thing, are you up for the German Masters this year? Although I won't be playing, just gonna be a judge. Trust me I'm not exactly thrilled about upvotes given out of spite for the other side, rather than me having made a somewhat coherent point Kind of the point of my last point, really. You went ahead feeding the trolls and the thread derailed into dealing into personal beef some other forum users have with you. That's how your point came across - and we still have to agree to disagree on a Liberto as a 'hard hitting' piece I see his main value in just sitting there and being annoying to get rid of since he uptrades hard against any of the usual midfield troops with Mines and a Chaincolt. With a secondary use to just have someone to run into a couple Perimeter weapons or a Mine (with a decent chance of survival). Now that I think about it, gotta have to add Mine AROs not being deadly enough with Dodge in the mix to my N4 complaints.
I don't think these points are far apart. I see @Zewrath talking about how Camo, minelaying, midfield shotguns are a great opportunistic tool. I don't think anyone disagrees that much, actually. He makes the point that opponents who are unprepared (or misdeploy) are really vulnerable to these tools (I also agree... I vastly prefer Acon's Minelayers to all of VIRD's specialty defenses, because mines work vs anything, and don't require ARO layering to be effective. .) @Hachiman Taro points out that you can often layer your defense, so you can both Discover and Hold when something like a Liberto is sprinting into your backfield. I agree here too, I do this often. That being said, I also agree with @Teslarod that opening your game with a short-range unit is often a trap, even if it's Infiltrating or Forward Deployment Level 2. I've played too many games using Ryuken-9, Dart, Peacemaker, etc. to be very impressed with SMGs and shotguns as rambo pieces. If you get the opportunistic shot, or if your opponent's defense falls apart in Turn 2 and Turn 3, then the game-changing shotgun blast becomes more possible and more likely. But if I'm ruining an opponent with Turn 1 shotgunning, then I probably would have won the game anyway vs that caliber of player. This goes to @Hachiman Taro 's point about defense, and @Teslarod 's point that shotgunning-the-enemy-DZ is an opportunity play, and not a staple strategy. So taking us back to the Liberto: good tool? Sometimes it does things, sometimes it doesn't? I think that fits my experience. I only started noticing the Liberto once I started facing 2 of them, and they're also hiding Hunzakuts, and they're also supporting McMurrough. It's a fierce combination.
I see @Zewrath clinging desperately to his initial inflammatory post, while others like @Teslarod and @barakiel provide constructive points of view on the topic. Smashing others as "meme users" when they disagree with you is pretty counter productive. Since @Zewrath labeling me as one of those for discounting your ability to properly read "balance" in a game, I'd venture a guess and say he he is the type who long ago chose a hill to die on. Are Liberto a good unit? They sure can be, but their value differs from army to army. Are they a unit you'd want to rambo top of turn one? No. Are the Liberto game breaking? No, absolutely not. Does @Zewrath start name-calling and insulting when others disagree? Absolutely. @Zewrath your argument about the "upvotes" is kinda hilarious. Take a few minutes to read the list of comments between your last two posts. I don't see anyone agreeing with you that the Liberto is an auto-include.
So I haven't posted here already - Libertos are definitely very good. Very cheap, disposable, yet dangerous. I think I'll use one in Haqqislam, bought him especially (but for now I play Ramah). I think that one 8pts Liberto is definitely worth taking over one of the infiltrating Daylamis. But I also don't think that he is an autoinclude. And I rather will prefer the 8pts version, because I like to put my SWC elsewhere (like 2 Daylamis with Panzerfausts). And TBH I think that Krakots are far worse in this term - since they came out they can be seen almost everywhere, running around in PanO for example, and in pairs... ;) That hurts me, as Morats are one of my armies. In the end - something that maybe is a bit positive. We can use those mercenaries mostly in Vanilla armies and that's something cool. Vanillas has hard time against all those fireteams and having option to take some disposable unit is nice for them. (And definitely stop with this nonsense in Dahshat... And give the Fishboys to Druze). PozdRawiam / Greetings PS. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking - I don't use the full AVA of Ghazis, or - YES! - I sometimes don't use them at all :P
@oldGregg my dude, @Teslarod is a big boy with thick skin. I trust me and him understand, given the complexity of the game with so many nuances, that some times it's hard to articulate everything on a forum, especially with so many hidden factors behind the reasoning of the perception of a unit's strentgh. Which is why I suggest skipping this and invite him for beer, as he is a pleasant bloke and I can appreciate the banter of him calling me danish tard, while I pull his leg. Your thin skin, on the other hand, is hillarious to me. @barakiel nothing much I disagree with to be honest, except for the fact that I obviously maintain that the Libertos is an auto-include in any vanilla army that can bring him, as I don't see any convincing argument NOT to bring him, and quite frankly, I haven't seen any top tables with access to that unit NOT bring him. I can concede to both @Teslarod and to some extent @barakiel that the mentioning of the Hac Tao perhaps was unwise, as that muddied the waters.
Nah. The counter is too binary. It speaks more to a problem with what it's countering than supporting the premise of Veteran being more widespread.
Nice to see people taking in what others say and at least fairly considering it in this thread. Makes conversations here so much more constructive.
True that, looks like a lot of opinions are generally shifting and healthy conversation is happening. :)
Mercenaries can be an interesting way for the designers to mutate the meta, alongside ITS season rules without having to do overhauls across all the factions. I kind of like that mercenaries that vanilla armies can get access to are useful and see play time. It makes me sad to no end to have this wicked sick Knauf model that just never sees the table until I started proxying him as le muet (and even then, thats not very often). Is it a fine balance not to just make them super good and optimised? Yeah. Libertos are probably just a little too good. Aida Swanson is probably just a little not good enough.
Based on recent personal experience, they're at their most 'balanced' (i.e. least essential) in Haqq since every extra irregular order in Haqq needs to be weighed carefully. In essence they aren't adding anything especially new to the faction, but are still very solid - even if they end up as part of a chiefly irregular secondary combat group, their capacity in a defensive role as one more good cheap unit to deny the enemy a few orders on a critical turn is worth the investment and the SWC cost is very affordable to most Haqq lists.
Isnt that similar in Dahshat though? The mentioned 2 Libertos, 2 Hunzakuts and McMurrough is 5 irregular orders and around a third of your points. For all individually order efficient pieces admittedly, but the number of irregulars is something you still have to balance carefully I imagine.
Yes and no, while Dashyat needs to bea wary of the amount of irregulars in CG, they aren't particularly worried over the amount they over all due to how many orders they can generate in the first place.
