1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

AD jumpers concept + rules

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by lord farfhocel, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    But we have infinite ammo for nearly all guns and missile launchers ;)
     
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,034
    Likes Received:
    9,463
    For a firefight that lasts maybe 5 minutes (~3-5sec per order given movement distances, 10-20 orders per turn), you can't put more than about 120 rounds through an assault rifle in full auto (at least if you're trying to hit anything, like Infinity troopers are). Reloads really slow you down. That's roughly half the basic load of an M16 rifleman (210 rounds), and the guys in Afghanistan were usually carrying 600 rounds a man (that's 20 magazines!).

    Missiles at least used to be small, more like the little thing from Iron Man 1 that popped a tank than a Javelin antitank missile (see also the ammo drums under YJ missile launchers!)

    And that's also why I said that if CB decided that jump packs didn't suffer from a fuel limit, then I'd be all for adding both the super jump option and the 'free jump down' rule.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    And unlimited grenades, but only 3 mines. Also, considering the quantum storage that Bagge REMs, refuelling is possible.

    Liu Xing, however, has different problems.

    A fair assumption to make for a game of Infinity is that a trooper that is does not have any special movement skills nor fight on a table specifically designed to encourage vertical movement upwards, but not facilitate vertical movement downwards (such as elevators and ladders only on the sides of the buildings closest to a deployment zone), a trooper would not make use of a fall protection ability more than once or twice. That in and of itself should not take a massive amount of fuel compared to the jump itself, so unless they fuel the AD devices only to exactly land (and thus instantly die if they Disperse to an elevation other than the one they aimed at), there should be enough fuel in there to facilitate.
     
  4. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    766
    Wow ... that plus their whole equipment, that should be quite heavy isn't it ?
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    8,740
    As time goes on better materials and construction means the equipment of the average Infantry has gotten lighter, everything from his weapon to shovels, radios, food, etc weighs less than it used to.

    This does not mean that they carry a lighter load, just that they now carry a lot more stuff (especially armour and batteries!) averages seem to be in the 35-55 kilo range.
     
    Nenyx likes this.
  6. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    778
    Likes Received:
    513
    I don't buy it for the Meteor. His only mode of locomotion is to hover. It can AD but not SuperJump ? Lack of fuel would prevent it from even moving after it lands (like the netrod).
     
  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    850
    As long as those actions are considered ordinary uses of super-jump and not additional ADs.
    Otherwise the Liu Xing might really live up to their title of "Jump Infantry"...

    Yeah, thought that as well when I saw the profile for the first time.
    Would be really cool fluff-wise, and super-jump does not seem to be that expensive.
    Maybe give it a second profile with 'more fuel'...
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,034
    Likes Received:
    9,463
    Yes, though those guys were Stryker infantry, so had a truck to carry the heaviest of their gear (or left it back in the FOB). Pretty sure they were still carrying ~45kg between their assault packs (3 days supplies), ammo, and armor.

    My friend was basically carrying 400ish rounds weight in batteries for all his comms gear. Sucks to be the LT.
     
    AdmiralJCJF, stevenart74 and Nenyx like this.
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    Heard stories of a particular SAS mission and while the source and particulars aren't important, the gist of the story was that he packed light and his evaluation of what went into the main pack (extra food) and in the drop bag (extra ammo) probably saved his life. Spec ops might very well kit significantly lighter and engage a whole lot less.
     
    Section9 likes this.
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,034
    Likes Received:
    9,463
    Engage a lot less, but they need to pack a lot more firepower to be able to break contact. LRRPs and SEALs in Vietnam often carried 400 rounds for the M16, plus belts for the MGs. Stoner and M60 gunners would usually pack 400 rounds or so personally, with another 100rd belt or two across everyone else.

    At least for American troops, the idea is that your food is in your uniform pockets (I think you can put a full MRE into each thigh pocket), your ammo is on your armor/web gear, and everything else is in your pack.

    But yes, having extra food around is occasionally a lifesaver. Read about one Canadian mission in A-stan where they were "only going out for the day" so didn't pack/get issued ANY food. a week later, they finally made it back to base.
     
    stevenart74 likes this.
  11. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    766
    Feels like your everyday shadowrun, with M. Johnson telling his usual catchphrase "I'll be an easy task". Until something is going south. Poor guys.
     
    AdmiralJCJF, stevenart74 and Remnar like this.
  12. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    1,810
    Guys... what if Jump pack is only meant to slow down descent so that a AD: troop is able to land safely? What if Jump Pack is not something Warhammer 40,000'ish - does not allow to literally JUMP, or even propelled long strides? Fuel? Whatever... maybe the purpose of this piece of equipment is to provide safe landing only?
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    US spec ops do have a reputation for making a lot of noise.

    I've got a few friends or friends of friends who's done rounds as jäger in A-stan and Mali and what you describe sounds a lot like how they describe their loadouts, although I suspect the SEALs got issued exotic bullets for their MGs a lot more often than our Swedes on summer vacation were. For exact locations where they're supposed to put stuff I suspect I'd have to go dig on Soldf, but quite frankly I'm not sufficient MÖP to think it's a good use of my time :p

    (MÖP = Militärt Överintresserad Person = Person with Over-interest in Military)

    That's very reasonable, but for gameplay it's very possible to get stranded when you do take the rather huge risk of deploying using that skill. I'm not entirely convinced that the skill has a decent balance between risk vs reward. A good opponent can mitigate the reward but you can't really mitigate the risk, but if you use game mechanics to mitigate the risk of ending up stranded on a high position we might see this skill start approaching a state where it will increasingly depend on the player's skill in using them rather than not rolling a 1 on a D4...

    From a rough transcribe on the Liu Xing's Explode mechanic, the explosion is from the over-sized release bolts. It's not that the Liu Xing has release bolts for the landing pack, but that the Liu Xing has extra large explosives that their armour can protect them from that gives them the explosion landing, but they still shed the landing pack just like all AD3+ units do.
    Everything is retconnable, though, if there's a will :)
     
  14. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    1,810
    No guts, no glory. Rolling to deploy an Impersonator or Infiltrator closer to enemy is also a risk and the cost of failure is tremendous, when compared to being stranded on a high rooftop. The thing is - you can 100% avoid landing on such a "rooftop" by simply picking a landing zone within 1" - 15" of it - thus once scattered, the trooper will not be able to land there no matter which direction you roll. Seriously - the skill is good as is.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    It's factually bad game design the more that rides on a single dice roll.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,766
    Likes Received:
    4,252
    It's generally not a single roll though.

    First you need to fail your jump.
    Then you need to scatter somewhere bad.
    Then the bad thing needs to hit
    Then the bad thing needs to wound.

    Given the odds of a sticking a jump is ~60% a single ARO wounding an average AD Trooper is ~40% it's probably around a 1/4 odds of losing an AD trooper to a jump. ~60% vs ~25% is a pretty good spread for a risky FTF.

    There's a lot of assumptions that go into that (B1 ARO, no HTA, roughly equal odds of scattering somewhere OK as somewhere inimical to your Trooper's health). But, before committing, you should ask "what happens if I fail my jump?". It's one reason why droping deep in your opponent's DZ is a good tactic: the odds of dying as a result of failing the jump go way down.

    I do agree that it does tend to be swingy (either overwhelming success or catastrophic failure). Perhaps a way to balance that is to increase the likelihood of success but limit the consequences: reintroduce Drop Zones but make AD3 flat PH and AD4/5 PH+3.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    It kind of is a single roll, though, since it's mostly about whether the AD troop is in a good position or not. If they do end up actually landing (and not ending up on a rock, in a wall, etc) then well... they're a medium infantry in a position you didn't actually choose. Or dead.

    As much as Drop Zones are limiting factors, the ability that AD troops now have to threaten soldiers on rooftops mustn't be understated. It's not so much the likelihood of landing a Tiger on a rooftop, as the threat of doing so that keeps your opponent from placing their Alguacile LT there with impunity.

    It's not an easy problem to solve. Same with Infiltration rolls where PH-3 is extremely punishing if failed but extremely rewarding when they succeed. Replace "extremely" with "way too" at your own discretion.
     
    inane.imp likes this.
  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1,629
    Nested rules are bad, m'kay.
    As such, so is AD4 idea.
    AD5 was always underwhelming, but that seems to be a design. Reportedly, it's not significantly more expensive than AD4 anyway.

    Sorry for not taking time to read entire thread, just landed here to comment on one of my pet peeves.
     
    AdmiralJCJF and oldGregg like this.