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Achilles + Patroclus Rules Q

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Dimswitch, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Dimswitch

    Dimswitch Active Member

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    Turning Pat into 3 Achilles is useless when linked because of "fireteam leader" marker duplication, but if you're allowed to use the holo1 skill with holoprojector L3, why not just make Pat into ONE Achilles?

    Whether you mark Pat or Achilles as fireteam leader during deployment, only 1 token goes down, and your opponent still doesn't know who the real one is...
     
  2. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    I don’t really see the point of that fireteam to begin with. What kind of list would you put that in? And how large is the tactical advantage of hiding Achilles that way?
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @ZlaKhon I think it's to prevent Achilles' frenzy from triggering.
     
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  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Also due to the established "friendship" between the two characters in myth.
     
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  5. Dimswitch

    Dimswitch Active Member

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    Well first of all, I'd agree on the limited utility of that fireteam. Both these guys generally seem more useful in vanilla with their ODD profiles, but just for fun, I was trying to come up with a viable phalanx list they were both in. In steel phalanx, I basically look at this fireteam as a 2-headed TAG.

    The benefits are this:
    *They both have 6-4 move so you can move them together quickly and efficiently
    *In ITS10, MI have forward deployment. Patroclus is MI, and Achilles v2 already has that skill
    *In a fireteam, Achilles won't go impetueous*, keeping cover bonuses in subsequent turns* (edited for clarity, thanks @Nenyx)
    *Extra deadly in CC thanks to fireteam bonuses

    As for why bother with the holo deception:
    If you manage to get first turn, your opponent is going to make you deploy first. If you're only deploying 1 Achilles, your opponent will position to counter him. If you're deploying 2 models, and your opponent doesn't know which is which, he's going to have to spread out his defenses.

    If you're going second and you deploy well, your opponent is going to have to make a difficult decision regarding who to go after. If he spends most of his turn/orders setting up an Achilles-killing play and it turns out to be Patroclus, Achilles is gonna come in with a vengeance on your next turn and mop up.

    In the active turn, you can use the holoechos offensively. You no longer care about hiding the real achilles, but moving a fireteam of 4 models across a dangerous fire lane presents another difficult choice: does your opponent delay his ARO and potentially get surprise shot? Or does his pick one, maybe hit a holoecho and then eat an opposed FTF with the golden haired warrior? You can also use echoes to clear mines.

    I'm not sure I'd call it ultra-competitive, but it's an interesting thought experiment trying to make these guys work in Steel Phalanx.
     
    #5 Dimswitch, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  6. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick note, frenzy only triggers on your next turn, meaning that if Achilles wounded something during your first turn, he will keep his cover bonus during the remaining of your turn and the opponent's before becoming impetuous at the start of your turn (and immediately giving you an irregular order). So in fact you have more to gain than to lose by letting him becoming impetuous.
     
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  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I've tried the Duo on multiple occasions and every time it has always been lack lustre and not performed anywhere near as well as something that costs that many points. The second you use them independently to mutually support each other then they really start to shine, well Pat does anyway, taping a scalpel to a sledgehammer isn't exactly a good use of resources.
     
  8. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    ... are we talking man love again?

    So now we understand why Achilles 2 needed mobility armour: for those short but oh-so intense battlefileld encounters :smile:
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's the Ancient Greeks, so almost certainly!
     
  10. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    The problem is :

    You’re paying 130 points for what 75 pts could accomplish. The charade isn’t worth much as a defensive measure to Achilles, as Patroclus is almost as expensive as big A himself - in most cases, you’d actually prefer people shooting at Achilles, as he is that much tougher.

    Both Achilles and Patroclus are great gunfighters in their own right, so in most cases you’ll profit more from having a second attack vector, rather than redundancy in one.
     
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  11. Dimswitch

    Dimswitch Active Member

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    Unfortunately I think this thread de-railed a bit (probably thanks to my poor choice of wording in the OP) - the question wasn't "is the duo good", but rather "does Holo3 actually require you to place the other 2 holoechoes during deployment?"
     
  12. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    No, you can choose to use any level of Holo.
     
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