I need to be unable to consistently win games with MO which is not the case. MO has always had the same problem of the lack of long range weapons. So that hasn't changed. The main HI link has just changed from Hospiliters + Magisters to Santiago + Magisters. Not to big a deal. The biggest issue for MO was the removal of Fusiliers which many people asked for and they got it. lol
I dont think losing those 3 fusiliers is that huge. Replace them with 2 mulebots and a fugazi and your ahead 6 points or if you replace them with 3 order sergeants your down 9 points which I don't feel is huge. Joan also being able to convert the war cor and tech bee into regular orders is also a pretty big deal too. I actually like using Joan outside of the link to take advantage of her free coordinated order each turn.
If you don't think that players running the 3 Fusiliers were not ALSO running 2 Mulebots and a Fugazi then you haven't really been listening. But you are right about Joan being great out of a Fireteam.
I used that free coordinated order even with the fireteam. An expensive pseudo NCO in a sense but potentially profitable
<facepalm> Good luck with Mulebot being LT! Also you still need a 21 pts hacker! Which is 20 pts per order. In theory nice, but damn pricy if you want to run HI link AND have some unhackable support for it (eg. TOFOOS and/or TO MSR).
Thats only shocking if you never played without the Hospiliter HMG. There are metas out there where terrain is set so you don't need HMG just to get out of your DZ.
That's a fair point, so then we would have to look at it as us basically being down 9 points. Due to switching 3 fusiliers for 3 Order sgt's. I can't remember exactly what price difference between these hospitallers and the last ones but they all got cheaper right? So for me my standard Joan pain train was Joan, hmg, doctor combi, 2 boarding shotguns. Anyone know the difference between that link points wise now and from before? I wonder if its 9 points but I honestly cant remember.
Yeah, I forgot. MO is shit. Every table needs to have firelanes where you can lock your opponent into their DZ and every list needs multiple HMG just to break out. Sure.
That's not it. An Order Sgt cannot be a LT. That's a 30+ investment. If you run the pain train just like that you're up 8 points but if the link lead gets isolated or killed you're hosed down to a haris at best unless it was Joan who got isolated/killed.
I'm still wondering why MO got access to Fusiliers in the first place. I mean, who does this Joe Blow think he is, giving orders to a bunch of Knights of the Cross?!? If your tables are so open that you can shoot from DZ to DZ, you need more terrain!
I don't think the old pain train is exactly the way to go now adays anyway. The arguement about the LT is a legitimate one and I feel like it's the main difference between old and new mo. I don't have a great arguement for it except that for fluff reasons I like knight LT's. While I do think having an expensive LT is a bit of a different playstyle than the hide a LT with 3 fusiliers I dont believe it is a playstyle that really hurts MO and makes them "bottom tier". I think the MO updates makes them play a bit differently and that's it. I think the Joan pain train is less efficient but that seems to be the case with all pure heavy infantry links anyway. We are in the era of mixed links with a durable point man leading the way with 4 light dudes. Though they do have a place in certain missions and they are alot of fun. Nothing like 5 heavy armored dudes busting through a door and deus vulting all over the place.
@Section9 I could easily counter by saying, if you can't shoot from DZ to DZ in a minimum of two decent lanes then your tables are too dense. And @Judge Dredd has it right @atomicfryingpan when he points out that the real loss isn't the slightly cheaper Fusiliers per se, but the lack of a cheap (and concealable) Lt. So it's not just the extra 9 pts for the Order Sergeant equivalents, but ALSO the cost of a Lt (who might now be getting dragged into combat with a Fireteam now) over and above the "cheerleaders". Of all the downsides of the MO changes, that's the one which has the largest impact and the most implications.
I will say that MO performs far better in spec-op games where they can take a cheap COC with their spec-op. It makes a big difference. The new Spechulre knight is cool but too costly. If MO had even a 30ish CoC it would make a big difference. Theres a big difference between having some long range firelanes and being unable to move out of your DZ far enough to reach spitfire range.
More importantly, that the correct way to build tables is one that invalidates weapons which CB deemed most expensive. I think it's rather clear what they had in mind issuing those prices.
