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A MOment of bitterness

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Unlikely to occur, if the bot tries to discover you get to sink normal rolls into it.

    Well this means you went second and it's anybody's guess how the game goes from here. Who knows, maybe your Kamau got punked and the Zulu Cobra is literally the only thing left that can safely fight.

    Patsy in all of a Haris link chucks Nimbus at 80% success rate. You're exaggerating a fair bit there on the price of failure. Like I said earlier the Zulu Cobra's intended destination is somewhere in the middle of the table to be annoying with a Jammer so moving him is part of the game plan for the turn anyway.

    I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here. Even in positive HMG rangebands the TR bot is still getting -12'd.

    This is fantastic, assuming the Kamau is still around on your turn to do this. He tends to ride high on the shitlist of things that get shot quickly. Ironically enough, one of the models that people will feel the most compelled to use a Nimbus Grenade on.

    Zulu Cobra in that sense is alot more likely to be around to be used if you go second.

    I'm not saying you don't have other options or that even this may be your best option. I'm saying this is a very good option to have in your arsenal.
     
    #301 Triumph, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Well, sure.

    But it's not often that you try to push a basic line infantry across the table to attack an ARO piece, you'll usually be attacking with SOME kind of advantage to stack things your way.

    And it's not that there aren't narrow circumstances where throwing a Nimbus Grenade is worth the investment in the bearer AND the orders to put it down.

    It's just that those circumstances aren't that common.

    Especially when your only source of Nimbus was a Father Knight.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That I can agree with a major practical limiting factor of Nimbus is Corvus Belli tend to be pants on head retarded when it comes to designing bearers for the grenades. Vanilla YJ would certainly use them alot more if our sole bearer wasn't some PH10 idiot.
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Looks at PanO's drobears....
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The only ones lower than PH12 can get core linked so I mean that's actually decent? Drop bears are less stat locked too, they're still useful as corner busters because of the alternative deployment mode.
     
  6. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Sole source of eclipse too ;)
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Doesn't have to be the Bot rolling for discover. The board is not set up in a vacuum, there may be various other troops around you'll need to clear out for your scenario.
    You're PanO, WIP12 Lts and all, it's safe to assume you will be going second half the time...
    Again, for lack of better options this might be your best remaining option. It's not ideal and Order expensive to set up.
    At this point you spent enough points on that gimmick that you could just take a Squalo HGL or Cutter to compare it with. There are several layers that can go wrong and rob you of the main advantage - having zero risk of retaliation from the TR Bot.
    Yeah and in +3 Range that means he'll still be critting on 2s with 4 dice, that's exactly the problem with TR Bots we're trying to avoid with the Nimbus setup. A Croc from inside 16" doesn't have that problem and will be more Order efficient.
    Leaving your Kamau out to die for Reactive Turn 1 is a rookie mistake. You have a lot of cheap stuff to slow down your opponent and even if he goes down, the Kamau is easily revived. You can also just bring 2.
    And that's where we disagree, it's not very good, several things can go wrong with it and you have easy access to pieces that can do the same job better evern without other trooper's help.
    The mentioned Croc Man has 64.67% to take out a TR Bot vs a Dodge on 4s and can weave in and out of Cover to recamo and try again or drop Mines on the TR Bot if he can get close enough. No prior setup with Nimbus necessary and HD + Infiltration makes it safer.
    The Zulu Cobra himself is decent at outranging the TR Bot with Surprise Shot, which offers slightly worse chances to take out the TR Bot, but again doesn'r require external Setup.
    For our Scenario Nimbus doesn't increase the odds much, if at all, compared to the Order cost involved.

    This isn't about the ZC, who is an excellent trooper to have around. It's more about Nimbus unfortunately not doing much for you.
     
  8. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    -6 for nimbus+, -3 cover, -3 camo, -3 surprise, +3 range = -12 mod = cannot shoot back
    -6 for nimbus+, -3 surprise, -3 for being a remote = -12 mod = cannot dodge.

    There is NOTHING better in the game at taking out a TR bot. It just has to eat it.

    It is order intensive, but ultra reliable.
     
  9. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I believe teslarod was factoring marksmanship
     
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  10. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Yeah, reliable, but a simple camo sniper can deal with the bot in a single order. Camo, surprise, range (easy for a sniper) and cover. And if decide to dodge, it has 75% chances to fail the roll
     
  11. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    I complain a lot on the forums, and I know this is a the MO bitterness thread, but it's so far off topic at this point a lot of you seem like you're grasping at (bitter) straws just because. I know I'd love to have nimbus+ and TF as an option...
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You're gonna have to show your math on that one because it's -15 before rangebands bring it back.


    As someone who flings literal entire combat groups of 5pt smoke throwing warbands at people, uh.... Yes, please. Never have the Kamau on ARO turn 1. Never ever. Definitely a rookie error.

    We also appear to have very different definitions of easily revived when we're talking about WIP12 doctors that may or may not even be in a list.


    The difference here is it really isn't a gimmick. The Zulu Cobra is showing up just because the Zulu Cobra is an amazingly cost effective skirmisher. Patsy's showing up because well, Patsy's also a pretty damn good deal for her cost and she's wildcard so she can slot into alot of places. It's not like building a SML jank list, that's a gimmick.


    And does every single list have both the points and SWC for a camo sniper? A major topic in this thread has been about realising you have great options outside of your preconceived box and I think this is where you guys are forgetting about things because you're hyper focused on the concept of efficiency.

    What if you don't have a croc man? What if it died? What if you didn't bring one because you cut it for something else? What if the croc man can't get into position because a minelayer is blocking his path? Game's full of variables, more so if you're going second.

    In another faction you might not have the answers to easily or safely solve a posed problem anymore, particularly in the mid game after the shit hits the fan and things start dieing or get committed to do things elsewhere on the table. However here you have access to another fantastic option to attempt to problem.

    Remember like 8 pages ago when we're going "Ahhhhh, Pan-O doesn't have options, woe is me I can only use my hyper order efficient shooty bois to shooty the things!" Well, here's a great example of a more round about way to tackle a common problem.

    Spending extra orders like this to play with "dirty Nomad tricks" is the norm. Do you think laying smoke is also hyper efficient? It's not it requires extra orders to maneuver and chain smoke where you need it. The same goes for Hacking, it costs extra orders to move, deploy, or pitch repeaters about as well. I wouldn't stress so much about needing to spend a couple of extra orders to execute with Nimbus at all.
     
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  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Again, it it's the -12 against TR Bots in Varuna you want just take the Croc.
    There are plenty things that beat the ZC even with Nimbus at taking out TR Bots. Generic MSV2+Smoke outside 32", Swiss Guards, Moiras... list goes on.
    Doesn't have to be Order intensive, especially not in Varuna.

    @Triumph
    The 64.67% are for a Croc Combi in <16", not for a Sniper. Doesn't mean you can't just take the Sniper if you have the SWC. To each his own.
    Friendly reminder you get 2 of those for Patsy and a ZC and that they have Hidden Deployment and Infiltration.
    I'd suggest taking your own advice and thinking outside the box you're trying to make work so bad.
    If you want to kill TR bots at minimal risk in Varuna, the ZC + Nimbus combo just isn't the best choice. Welcome to PanO, where we just shoot things since long before Nomads had KBs.
     
  14. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    I'm more impressed by the -12 MOD when the TR bot chooses dodge, ON TOP OF the -12 to BS. Completely removing either of the two AROs it has is HUGE! The only risk is that you might not roll a hit...
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    The Nimbus+Triangulated Fire does actually seem like a good way to take out things like linked Magisters or especially Riot Grrls without risking a very expensive piece like a TAG or X Guard. Cutting down that Hyperdynamics-boosted Dodge is a whole different story to just getting -12 to BS.
     
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  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I am aware I was talking to @fari there.


    Yes you can and they are fantastic but hear me out here. What if you didn't put any in your list. Maybe because that's not the kind of list you were trying to build and or you didn't have the points after paying for Patsy and Orc Friends, or you couldn't justify putting them in order groups because you are running several echo bravo in a group for a mission like Firefight. There are plenty of reasons you may not have Croc men available besides they died or are on the wrong side of the table, having several great options to deal with problems is a really good thing to have.

    Don't worry about me I'm already way outside of the box, I'm neck deep in all sorts of jank lists. Hell I'm waiting to see if I can make viable Katyusha lists for Dahshat company. You guys however, seem to be very much stuck in a particular box.
     
    #316 Triumph, Mar 26, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's pretty dang rude. Though dealing with TRbots is really about the first thing Infinity players used to have to learn, once they got past the Order/ARO mechanic... (where's that old-man/get-off-my-lawn emoji?!?)

    Wish my usual factions had Nimbus+ instead of standard Nimbus, that extra -3 from Nimbus+ really helps!
     
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