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A MOment of bitterness

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    What are you on about, the changes are pretty drastic.
    Most people unhappy with it are bemoaning the loss of one specific build, the one 90% of MO lists adhered to (Hosp + Magister link supported by filler Fusiliers).
    Addition of Haris alone changes a lot about MO. And the seemingly obligatory Santiago Wildcard fixes the Specialist issue (as previously it was pretty much Hosp Doc and TOFOOS, with an odd Tech-Bee or Machinist) and vulnerability to hacking (through KHD).
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You apparently do not have slightest idea how MO works (or used to work).
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's still largely "apply Knight link to face" or OS + TO. It has a lot more flexibility in those builds but it isn't particularly fresh. This means that people are still finding the same things to complain about.
     
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  4. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but it's not "apply the same link to the face in every single list" anymore. Hell, now Seraph is playable. When was the last time you saw a Seraph in an MO list before the update?
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I have a weird TAG loving meta. So I think all of them?
     
  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    My favourite and most successful old MO list was Hospitaler+Magister Core and a Group 2 Seraph with 6 Orders. Sadly you can't even come close to that Order count anymore.
     
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  7. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    The NeoVatican declared having enough orders to stand a fighting chance to be sinful :P
     
    Teslarod likes this.
  8. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe they are running out of resurrection supplies and trying to quietly cut those specific expenses before anyone notices. By cutting losses in worst case scenarios as opposed to increasing likelihood of best-case scenarios, obviously. Always prepare for worst, or something.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is going to believe you if you refuse to provide the data for examination. It makes it look entirely like you're trying to hide something.

    Behave suspiciously, people get suspicious. :thinking_face:
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    MO gets Blackfriar to link with OS
    NCA got Blackfriar Wildcard

    Cool beans.
     
    Lesh', andre61, Guardian and 2 others like this.
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I think the easiest fix for MO would be switching some spitefires for HMGs and adding an OS COC option.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is the Rule of 30. Until you have at least 30 events (say, 30 games per player, or per faction, ideally all with the same mission and terrain), you cannot make ANY statistical inferences from them!

    None.

    Because the data is just too unusual to compare. You cannot even tell what kind of distribution pattern it has (which is rather important to know what statistical tools to use!)

    Also, vidya games can do their statistics on the entire population of people playing, not just a small sample of them, which makes their life easier.


    I still think MO is good, but the reason I'm still not happy with IA is the 1W+NWI Heavy Infantry.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It's called "student set" for a reason!
     
  14. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Sadly they lack camo, lack orders, lack visual mods, and have arm which is THE overpriced stat.

    But we've done this to death. At least they make a nice painting project!
     
  15. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    MO has total AVA for TO camo at 27 points......but they lack camo. *sigh
     
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  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Riiiiight. Ok. So maybe some cross referencing is a good idea here to get across the point of why some of us are scratching our heads at the insistence that MO has no ability to skirmish and lacks Vis Mods and Camo models.

    This is a Guilang FO:

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)

    0 SWC | 27 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This is hands down one of Vanilla Yu Jing's most beloved units. For a long time the biggest complaint about the Guilang was the fact that it's AVA2 and the FO profile was so good 2 of them basically out competed the other profiles in most lists. Completely in a vacuum not considering anything else you can take in the faction this is considered an excellent unit. They skirmish, they press buttons, they can place mines and fuck with link teams and they're annoying to dig out if they if they set up in SF mode somewhere.

    One of the reasons the FO Zencha was positively received was that it freed up the Guilang to do other things with their AVA2, making the MSR more viable amongst other things.

    You might notice the Guilang is very similar to this guy:

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)

    0 SWC | 27 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    As far as relevant combat stats and gear goes you lose a point of WIP to 13, and lose MSV1. But you gain +1BS and TO Camo instead. Obviously they're not identical, but having access to full blown TO camo definitely opens up new avenues and options for them and certainly makes them harder to kill, especially if you wind up going second. Overall, the Infiltrating Hidden Deployment specialist package for 27pts is a fantastic one.


    Now going back to other profiles for a moment, as mentioned now the Zencha is in the mix it's increased the popularity of other profiles for the Guilang such as the MSR as an ARO piece.

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1
    GŬILÁNG MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)

    1.5 SWC | 33 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    The main benefit being its an ARO piece that can often afford to sit and declare no ARO, forcing things like a link team to waste an extra order trying to discover it at long range lest they ignore it and then it reveals itself and shoots at a non leader member in the open when they move.

    Again, very similar to the Order Sergeants in cost:

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)

    1.5 SWC | 33 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Except for an ARO piece trading the extra kit like Mines and WIP for +1BS and TO Camo and Hidden Deployment is obviously a massive benefit. Now you can pull stunts like placing them to double ARO people who try to attack your obvious ARO pieces, Trying to fight a TR bot and a TO Sniper who pops out at the same time is rage inducing. Or place them next to a Warcor, and when the enemy kills the Warcor and starts moving in the open reveal the sniper and take shots then. For alot of mid range attack pieces armed with Spitfires and the like they're quite probably looking at -12 MODs.

    There's alot of things you can do with this model. Play right with it and your opponents will be terrorised by every open fire lane purely because it might have a TO sniper hidden at the other end of it.
     
    #256 Triumph, Mar 23, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
    ambisinister likes this.
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's a very good comparison on @Triumph 's part. Guilang are to the point in the YJ meta that taking two of them and a Daofei (basic-camo HI) is considered the crutch or easy-mode.

    TO Spec Sergeants are NOT overpriced.
     
  18. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    i dont think anybody is really saying they are overpriced? the claim was the stat that is most prominent in MO is arm, which IS an overpriced stat
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    While true keep in mind MO has point reductions across the board including hand adjusted ones which helps offset that. Hospitalers have two points reductions, one built in for Frenzy and an extra one after the update for example.
     
  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Mind that only them and Santiagis got those surprising point discounts. For some reason Teutons, KotHS and FK didnt get any discounts (and those units eould make more sense to get those).