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A MOment of bitterness

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. Lieutenant

    Lieutenant PanOceanic Dabbler

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    Hitchen’s razor cuts deep.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    It still blocks LOF to everything except MSV2/3, that alone is enough to do the trick 90% of the time. If it doesn't chances are quite high you can sneak past the lonely MSV with Cautious Movement.
    Camo fails against Mines, Camo doesn't exist on Knights, Camo gets risky once you face multiple Models. Camo doesn't benefit others only the owner, apples and oranges.
    Camo let's you not have that fight, Mates allow you to have that fight and not care most of the time if you happen to lose. Apples and oranges again.
    Wanna build a list around Dart? Do it elsewhere, MO is the worst possible place. You actually want other Camo Markers, especially Minelayers, to make sure your opponent doesn't figure out right away what that Marker is. You could downgrade a TOFOOS for that, but yet again why not play Dart with Nagas somewhere else in that case?
    Yes, yes it is. It's not just expensive, it's Link options suck. The weaponry doesn't compliment MO's solo assault pieces and people aren't running Securitate/Grenzers backed by Spectre MSRs for a reason. Other than that BS values are not much apart for TJC and MO. But I'd take the defensive Securitate Link with a KB any day over a defensive OS Link with what MO has to offer in that pricerange.
    Not PanO in general though, Varuna.
    Nope they can't, completely different. Using a Mate that way gives you a good chance to kill whatever you're losing the mate against. A Camo Marker in the same situation is in trouble.
    The tactic you describe is very Order intensive and I'm using it a lot - but with something like Group 2 Dart burning her Orders to get a high value Target after Group 1 took care of the most annoying AROs.
    No that's not normal cost. That's 13 points per body + subpar weapons + SWC for no utility beyond an Assault Pistol. Probably the worst deal in the game next to Morat LI. Everyone else gets that either cheaper, better or, more versatile. First and foremost Varuna, a Kamau Sniper backed by a bunch of Fusiliers blows OS out of the water for a laughable difference in points.

    Why not play Dart with Acon? Yeah why not? It's much better than MO. If you want TO go for Aleph Vanilla or OSS, Posthuman MK2s are all amazing.
    Yeah unless you play a Sectorial capable of putting her in her own groups with 3+ Camo Markers total. Taking Knights in MO is the only choice you have if you want a nice box instead of soggy cardboard.
    If they wouldn't be Bolts levels of bad one would actually might to use them. If the cards are bad you fold.
    Teutons are in comparison okay, other Knights, mostly Santiagos, paired with the same options as Teutons, mostly linking with Magisters, just outshine them. Enough that we agree on that part. Honestly baffled over here that you can uptalk OS and their options in the same breath as hating on Teutons.

    No one can take JSA in a fist fight, that's kinda their thing being the only Faction with MA5(+Surprise Attack) and all that. MO's access to long range SWC weapons, lack of MODs and being stuck with raw stats next to BS13 Mimetic AP HMG Wildcards kinda sucks.
    If Teutons are bad and Orcs are bad, FK are the worst of both worlds. All stats, no utility, lack of Frenzy or long range weaponry that would compliment the LI Link they can be part of. Truly the epitome of terrible.
     
    #182 Teslarod, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  3. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    ohh, the Missile launcher is not a long range weapon?
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and now they've noticed that hey, actually the cost is fine they're worth the points.

    See there you are stuck in your box again. You can do both.

    There are 6 linkable models there. There is a spare OS so you can relink them into a core if the ML Father Knight dies, which he might if someone shoots at him. Or if your Hospi Haris gets punked you can relink, leave the ML on overwatch and send in plan B which is the FK with a core link's worth of bonuses on his Spitfire.

    The point of building something like that is to give yourself options and tactical flexibility. There is value in that.

    Yeah that ain't right at all....

    You're linking them. They're effectively BS15 with extra burst. Are you... are you aware that entire factions of Vanilla players win exchanges by bringing regular old BS12 and 13 models without modifiers? Yeah you don't beat a Kamau in a head on firefight but you kinda just... don't fight the Kamau. You go fight something else. Kamau can't be everywhere.

    Complaining that an OS is under gunned when packing full link bonuses is kinda laughable. You're stuck in that mindset of simply winning firefights there's way more to this game than that.


    Uh, no. The identity of the sectorial is being the militant arm of the Vatican. That includes the bulk of it which is made up by AVA Total Order Sergeants. It's not just Knights.

    Invincible Army on the other hand is a sectorial that has a core fluff identity of being banner upon banner of power armoured soldiers. Hence why the Zhanshi support is limited to AVA 4.


    Yeah you really have been spoiled by that +1 BS. Firstly, the Order Sergeants are basically a defensive ARO piece and an order battery. They exist to soak orders and keep them away from your other stuff. It's fitting you call them an anchor even though you don't understand the value in that because your list anchors around them. Wanna get past the MSR Order Sergeant? Great, take a peak, take on the core linked Sniper Rifle.

    Surprise! You're also fighting a TO Sniper at the same time. Figure out that problem now. Fight the guy with TO Mods or the Core link mods? Or Dodge? You've got nothing but shitty answers now.

    The rest of the list plays around the Order Sergeants. Yes, they're not Dakinis or Kamau or something equally disgusting, but they do exactly what you need them to do for a reasonable cost while allowing you to access the other unique parts of the sectorial such as Inspiring Leadership.

    Joan has a purpose, she allows you to get extra value out of cordinating movement from your camo markers just to get them a bit more distance. She can be used to get them on SF Mode, and she gives you extra cheap orders you can use on your TO snipers to pick stuff off. She's also a WIP15 LT and BS15, perfectly capable of backline sweeping out shit that tries to dig into your lines like warbands and drop troops.

    Several of the troops are fragile, but that's fine. Hidden Deployment lets you dictate the terms of the engagement. It's not easy to use like +1 BS, but it's one of those skills that does actually have a very high skill ceiling. If you use it successfully to throw your opponent into disarray between that and stacking -6 MODs everywhere it's actually very difficult for them to land hits on you effectively.


    That's not a complaint you don't understand the point that's being conveyed. Camo Marker states always work even against MSV3 for the purposes of shielding you from an ARO. Smoke does not. Camo guarantees you one Move+Move order without getting shot. Every time, no exceptions. You can reliably go where you need to go with that.

    Smoke on the other hand, can only protect you until the counter shows up. Camo markers can't be directly countered in 1 ARO it takes at least 2 consecutive ones without allowing you to recamo.


    It's not a weird jab. Zencha are one of the fake 1 wound HI with NWI. Except unlike Dart they didn't get Shock Immunity (She gets Bioimmunity) so they get punked by SMGs, Mines, etc. They're still good but it's a bit of a downer. Dart on the other hand is basically proper HI with the addition she can't be hacked.
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    No, but they provide options for a nice Isolation Immune LT, LT shell games, and in general sudo CoC in form of regular order battery in case your LT dies.

    Quite a lot of addtional functions for the same price ^^
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Because you can't play shenanigans with TO Snipers backing Dart up in Acon, nor do you get access to other toys like Joan.

    The answer is pretty simple, because MO has options others don't.

    It was literally posted next to a link designed to do basically the same thing and it costs almost an identical amount with worse stats. Again, as I said before, you are blinded by the box you're stuck in. If you expect everything to be as good as Kamau you're gonna have a bad day because nobody gets Kamau but Varuna.


    You are missing the point entirely, perhaps deliberately. Time will tell.


    The archetype less straight forward and harder to use than Knights but no less effective. Effective use of HD and Camo eludes many people though.


    So this is pretty simple:

    Teutons, much like a Shang Ji, are badly out competed inhouse for their use and price range. Much as Zuyongs are cheaper Shang Ji so why bother, Magisters are cheaper Teutons so why bother. That makes them bad. Both Shang Ji and Teutons need redesigns to get them into their own niche.

    Order Sergeants are fine. They're reasonably costed as demonstrated when compared to the wider scope of units and nobody in sectorial competes with them for LI defensive link duties that comes in at 80-90pts to back up Haris or solo attack pieces. That makes Order Sergeants viable.

    It's not rocket science there. Your complaints are they're not Kamau. Deal with it, that's how everyone who isn't Pan-O has to deal with it. That's what happens when you play sectorials they are different in different places. Kuang Shi links would be fucking amazing in IA, but it's ok that I can't have them in there the same as it's ok that ISS can't have Zuyong as superior Wu Ming.


    Next you'll tell me Crane Agents and their links are bad. Yet they're extremely popular and are extremely similar being a cheerleader boosted Spitfire that's just less accurate than a FK.


    Things you tend to need more when it's considerably easier to pick your LT off with stuff like a Fiday than say... Joan.

    Pros and cons everywhere.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yeah options you should play PanO Vanilla for if you want to run them in the way you describe.
    You don't have to be as good as a Kamau at straight up shooting. But that's all that OS do and they do it bad. Regulars or Fusiliers do their job better for less and that's before mixed Links make any of them even better than OS.
    Nah you just seem to miss the argument here - if you want Dart, as a Rambo or support piece, you can utilize her much better elsewhere. Put her on the board with loads of bodies and mines as well as TAG and her own pool of Orders in Acon. Or bring the entire array of bullshit Aleph can come up with. I've won a 40 player 5 game tournament with Achilles, Posthumans + Dart 16 Order Aleph Vanilla, so what the heck do I know about playing Dart, eh?
    You seem to be quite far gone when you compare Magisters to Teutons.
    Teutons can be compared to any linkable Knight there is except the Magisters. Magisters being 9 points more expensive than Order Sergeants is one of their biggest problems, because Magisters are just that good, so why not strife to give them your Core slot?
    Shang Ji, much like Fatherknights are badly outcompeted inhouse for their use and price range.
    Instead of taking a FK Spitfire, why not a much better Santiago. Instead of taking a FK ML, why not upgrade the whole Link to Magisters instead.
    Teutons have BS14 and B4 guns, Magisters are fillers.
    It's not rocket science, Regulars aren't Kamau either, but Minelayer+Sensor, Sapper Sniper, AVA Total combined with a Lt Profile and thanks to the update being able to link with the Kamau's little brother - Bagh Mari - does a lot for them. Especially when it comes to supporting a Tikbalang and Dart in a list that can easily reach 16 Orders.
    Fusiliers in NCA are a bit different, no Link options there, just 3 points cheaper per body and a much better array of SWC weapons for a defensive LI Link. Oh yeah and again - they can be Lts, which means even Fusiliers with Combi Rifles surpass OS in utility.
    CG Links are great, Cranes have actual MA levels, DTWs, X-Visor Spitfires or a Sensor Multirifle. CG have linkable Smoke dirt cheap, perfectly optimized BSG FOs and a Dire Foe that provides area denial and extra tools if you want to pay for the upgrade. Not to forget you can have up to 8 Orders for 5 points each to sell the package.
    All that for less points and overall -1 BS. Much, much better.
    A Fiday would probably be the least of my worries for Joan. He has a hard time killing her and can't inflict 3 wounds in one Order, so if you screen her porperly she is basically impervious against that particular threat. Joan is overall very resilient and for that reason alone MO's prime Lt choice. A couple bad ARM rolls against an AD troop or a E/M LGL just happen often enough that you'll lose her every so often, which makes a 5 game tournament run that much more annoying to pull off. She has a big target on her head and you don't have the disposable troops, Mines or gameplay mechanics to prevent someone from going after her reliably.
     
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  8. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Oh god I hate to admit this but I actually agree with @Triumph and think he actually has a very well put together arguement. @Teslarod you honestly just sound upset at the changes so now everything in the sectorial is going to look like garbage to you.

    Quick I need to go back to disagreeing with triumph, umm the liu xing is the best ad troop in the game ;)
     
  9. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    My point with camo is that it is near ubiquitous in the game while smoke stands apart. It's something that can cost as little as 5 points in some factions while our extremely limited access to it costs ten times that. Compound that with our inability to put up white noise and we stand very much alone in our ability to control sight on the board.

    Acon brings Nagas, minelayers, cheaper line troops, linkable sniper sappers, bagh Mari, cheaper AD, the cheaper Tik, Scyla, ava 3 fugazi, linkable engy, and with Orcs and bagh flexibility I can mimic the Hospitaliers or Varuna kamau and i keep the biker. This gives me a broader pool of choices at cheaper costs to help support her with orders, more powerful AROs and hide her among camo tokens. As for putting her in a list, I actually covered this already that she points you towards the OS link. I'm sorry that playing the knightly orders and expecting knights offends you so. And further nailing this point in, shes in a price bracket with several infiltrators, TOFOOS, Koni and her. Shes not a specialist which is a knock against her when points are tight and spots to fill are tighter. Koni doesn't have a marker state which makes him lowest on the totem pole. TOFOOS have great camo and are specialists but dont have the punch of Dart. In the end, Dart and the TOFOOS pushing Koni out makes bloat. Picking one or the other depends on the rest of your list and the mission. Shes very likely to get set aside given how our basic line troopers are more expensive than usual. Citing the sectorial that gets a ton of orders elsewhere isnt going to help your point.

    You're not addressing points of my complaints and just saying options over and over again.

    A large part of the issue with CC being so defensive for MO is the smoke issue. JSA has a few ways to deliver CC units on someone's face, TO, smoke, or the old fashioned maneuvering. Domaru are also cheap as chips in comparison.

    Welcome to the Newton debate. In this thread? Maybe not. However there has been a sentiment from some that Teutons are fine.

    And finally the FK issue. So, this is the problem. Everytime someone tries to bring something up, you start going on and on about thinking outside the box in a very dismissive attitude. So let's break this down. The FK essentially comes in 3 main flavors, specialist, spitfire and missile and some can double up as LT. The BS is kind of an oddball choice so were going to set that aside and focus on the more frequently cited versions. The specialist FK can be an FO or AHD. This choice has to go head to head in terms of value with the OS and the Santiago. His main strength is his high raw defense stats and has no additional edge in terms of Wip or speed over either of his competition. Meanwhile, all 3 can go in an OS link or go solo. You can take a paramedic for 15 points for the same button pushing power, or the KHD Sant for 38 with deflector 1 or the spitfire for 43 for extra punch and finally the FK for 45 FO or 50 for AHD. The FK is 3 times as much as the basic guy and still more expensive as the other two options who have far greater versatility. Outside of the link your can still use the Sants, the KHD can use his marker state and the TOFOOS comes into play which doesnt need any more explaining as to why it's so damn great. When it comes to the offensive profile of the spitfire, he again comes into conflict with the sant spitfire who again offers more for less and when solo, the Sepulchre comes into the arena as well who can FD or CoC with the Sepulchre and Joan herself. The missile is actually somewhat unique. As to whether it's worth the cost is up to you. It's a 3rd long range option in the OS link and the OS have a template option or a wider range band option for less but easier to take out. As an LT choice he dips back once again into competing with the Santiago Spitfire and Joan as they price quite similarly and both of his compatriots have significant advantages over him. These are models that have similar loadouts and function in similar roles. This is the problem. The problem of massive stat blocks with nothing to support it. This is what I mean when I say internal competition. There isnt some magic out of the box thinking that is going to leverage him above his competition when he just has less on offer.
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Neither did I...
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    So....I've refrained from weighing in on this argument, for the most part because Im busy with more important actual life issues and also because, im kind of tired of the arguments.

    But Id like to briefly weigh in for a moment and just say this.

    I really really like the new MO design, its far more coherent as a whole, with little to no overlap in the jobs assigned to each of the knightly orders. I also rate it as a relatively strong sectorial with plenty of tactical and strategic depth.

    Finally, I feel CB solved all the core issues with the old list, even giving the Tueton its own niche reason to exist, and while I would have preferred more in some respects (Tueton) what we have now is definitely going to be something worth running in the future.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    And your point is completely irrelevant to the discussion. You don't have smoke, great, that's ok. What you do have is access to alot of Hidden Deployment models that have higher than average BS and excel in dictating the terms of an engagement. You can't block a firelane from sight, but on the other hand you can build lists that can walk through them with impunity. Saying that you only have one option which is engage in straight up firefights because you can never focus on maneuvering is wrong, you have options to do that you just apparently don't like using them.

    Which is fine. You are free to not like them. People will however probably make fun of you if you pretend they don't exist though.


    That's great you can do all those things in Acon, they're quite good too. Now say you want to focus some gameplay around placing hidden deployment traps on the table by terrorising people with TO sniper traps while having access to one of the better straight up camo brawlers with Dart? Guess what, you can't do that with Acon. Which again is fine, this isn't a problem. It's good that you have options to do things differently with the different sectorials.


    Dart's job isn't to be a specialist she just murders things. She's basically a cheap Dao Fei that has better movement options and trades range bands for higher impact vs heavy targets with her grenades. She also doesn't need to be a specialist when she's being backed up by I think are the second cheapest TO Camo specialists in the game. I believe only the Clipsos is cheaper.

    Yes these two together push Koni out, it would be better thematically if Dart wasn't in the sectorial and they basically cloned Dart's profile onto Koni. I agree there, but you should in return agree that whilst you dislike the theme you have actually been given competitive options and profiles with Dart. Or are you trying to argue that Dart is a shit profile?


    You seem to misunderstand the your sectorial's actual theme.

    It's Military Orders. Not Heavy Infantry Military Orders.

    The theme is taking the theme of the Catholic Church in the era of the crusades and pasting it into a Sci Fi setting whilst washing out the grim dark grim dark that you get in Warhammer. Order Sergeants are part of that theme. They're made to represent the gaggle of peasant levies, zealots, and rank and file soldiers that would accompany the crusaders on their wars. Order Sergeants are a Military Order, detachments of them are directly commanded by Father Knights.

    I get that perhaps you don't like that to your personal taste, but pretending it's not part of it is a bit disingenuous.

    If you wish to play a sectorial that actually is purely themed on heavy infantry and that alone I will direct your attention to the Invincible Army although alas I fear I have bad news, they also have no smoke.


    The answer to your complaints is actually you have competitive options you're just refusing to use them. That's why you're being reminded you have options over and over again because, you have options.


    Yes, that's because as sectorial JSA is has a partial focus on being able to deliver high risk high reward trades in close combat. To gain that, they heavily sacrifice their ability to fight at range. Their main shooter in a Domaru link is a BS12 Spitfire.

    Let me repeat that. JSA's best linked HI gunfighter is a BS12 Spitfire.

    If you want the knights to punch like Domaru in close combat and be expendable like them. You can't have Knights with shit like BS14 HMGs, BS15 Spitfires, or in close range firing shotguns at BS23. To gain that level of close combat expertise as a faction they sacrifice alot and they'll be fairly pissy if they get to close combat with you only to find you're basically on an even footing with them. I get that you would prefer to be awesome in close combat, but please, realise that comes with a heavy cost and it would mean having to rebuild the entire sectorial to achieve that.


    Firstly, paragraphs are your friend. Please try to use them for everyone's sake.

    Secondly your complaints are this:
    1. Out competed by various other models out of links
    2. Out competed by Santiagos in links

    The answer to 1 is that's fine. The Father Knight's job thematically isn't to be out of a link anyway he's in charge of Order Sergeants. Much like a Crane Agent he provides to MO the option to do the HI gunner getting cheap cheerleader link bonuses.

    The answer to 2 is firstly, the Santiago can't be a BS14 Missile ARO turret. Secondly, if you want a Santiago gunner you also now need to pay for a Santiago KHD to babysit him, which means if you're as the list I posted earlier bringing the Hospi Haris now you need two KHD Santiago. The Father Knight is BTS 9, he's annoying enough to attempt to hack that people won't dig deep for him with pitchers, and he's able to shrug off what's left in the lategame hacking.



    Point me to Vanilla's ability to lay a TO sniper trap next to a burst 2 BS15 MSR.

    You can't, because Vanilla amongst other things can't get links. It also can't pair them with Dart.

    Again, it's all about having different options. It's ironic that one of the factions that has some of the most options available to it through different sectorials doesn't appreciate that at all.


    Regulars and Fusiliers aren't in MO. Your mindset of I must compare everything to the best shooter available is a bad one to take. MO has a defensive link team. They are reasonably priced when compared to the wider scope of the game, this has already been shown. Whinging that they're not Kamau isn't going to get you anywhere. They're not Kamau, welcome to everyone else's world. We deal with our defensive links also not being Kamau. It's ok, it's fine. We use the other aspects of our faction to compensate for it.



    Because Magisters when you take 5 of them are considerably more expensive than Order Sergeants. I wasn't aware we'd have to do the basic math for you but a group of 5 Magisters with a ML is 120pts.

    This is what I'm talking about you guys really don't think outside your boxes.

    The list design was asking for a simple defensive link team
    to buy you some time and space to maneuver a Haris HMG or a skirmishing TO force around.

    You're all "Ahhhhh I MUST take the most cost efficient hyper optimised gun fighter AHHHH ok MAGISTERS GO. Shit, now I've got this core HI link I've spent 120pts on, I've got 22pt cheerleaders shit I gotta make em worth it ok SANTIAGO SPITFIRE. Ah CRAP now they're all HACKABLE ok I can fix this SANTIAGO KHD."

    And now we're at a 157pt core link that literally costs more than half your army and wants to consume all the available orders, when all we actually needed was something that costed 70-100pts to provide orders and stall the enemy a bit while Dart snuck into their lines and threw grenades at shit or to cover a Haris team moving into the middle of the table. I mean hell FK ML with 4 cheerleaders standing about as a "Yo, go away I'm a BS14 ML with 8 ARM in cover are you sure you wanna waste orders fighting me?" is only 101pts.

    Reminds me of the design history behind the Bradley IFV.

    Again, you have options. Rather than trying to take the same Magister link twice, make your second list play differently to accommodate different missions or opponent archetypes.


    That's great, she works great like that. She also works fantastic when backed up by a bunch of TO snipers and skirmishers. You have alot of good options here. Nobody is telling you Acon is shit, it's not. They're telling you Dart with Acon is great, but she's also great with different tools for MO.


    I know, that's my point. The complaint that Securitate have Veteran where OS don't is somewhat neutralised because MO tend to have big badasses as their LTs that are considerably harder to put down. Tunguska often has some nerd with a datapad, he's alot easier to assassinate and they're more likely to need Veteran (and don't have access to Chain of Command either).
     
    #192 Triumph, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  13. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Hard to put down? In my last 3 tournaments, my HI Lt got isolated and inmobilized in my deployment zone in the 1st turn vía hacking like 2/3 of the time spending only one or two orders. Now im forced to get a Sepulchre and a Machinist, despite i dont have tags or remotes to repair, only for evading LoLt. In a 10 orders lista, i think is too much investment
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So what's exactly job of FK, Teutons ?

    And how FK is not overshadowed by new Santiago ?

    And whats exactly the purpose of Fersen when we have new improved (and quite great) Santiago KHD ?

    Quite easy to show all those "naysayers" how good MO can be in a hand of experienced player, by taking MO to Vigo.

    (probably task made much easier with inclusion of SpecOps which do enable several more "lists" for current MO)

    Only 2 real issues which were solved in MO are:
    - HI focused sectorial has finally it's own KHD option
    - Seraph's Auxbot can move when his big brother use his signature SuperJump.

    Core issue always present in MO was "leave DZ quest", which was one of main reasons why Hospitallers made Santiagos almost non-existing.

    This issue was also not solved, as CB decided just to nuke the Hosp+Mag link rather rather than actually solve problem at it's root.

    (hilariously "new" Magisters are painted in Hospitallers colors xD)

    Those bonuses are not cheap if you "overpay" 15 pts when compared to other PanO sectorials (on top of already quite expensive FK).

    ORC+Regulars >> FK+OS
    Neither it is "LI Military Orders".
    Srsly you couldn't come with stupider argument.

    Funny enough almost every Hosp+Mag link were actually able to EFFIECIENTLY use the OS support (90% of time in form of TOFOOS, TO MSR). New "Limited Insertion" lists (which MO was heavily pushed to) are struggling to justify putting 1 (not to mention 2) TO guys who will actually make a use of their HD.

    Funny enough MO is also the only PanO sectorial without their "special version" of Machinist (on the other hand there's nothing I can think of which would make him "MO thematic").

    Also to summary an argument about fluff and MO: where are Seraph LT profiles ? (preferably with WIP13)
    So what are "other aspects" of MO ?

    Neither did I was aware of your existance.

    What does it change it the end ?
     
    #194 eciu, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    whatever you reckon mate.

    And I'll be taking to Vigo what I think best suits that combination of missions. If thats MO, then thats MO, if its not, it says nothing about the faction.
     
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Meh.
     
  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Actually it does. It says at what missions the faction is bad/supoptimal (similar to NCA not being a fan of armoury or Looting&Sabotaging, rescue is also probably not their favourite).
     
    theradrussian and Lesh' like this.
  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, when I hear "army identity", I think of a theme being communicated through unique gameplay rather than some fluff. You don't need a board game to soak the fluff through stories and visuals, so I presume something that only works through board game, since we have one here, is preferable.

    And when it comes to things like your first MO list example, the only unusual thing about it is quantity of TO camo units in a list that supports and uses them reasonably well. Everything else - active camo infiltrator, a link of absolutely mediocre line infantry, a durable active piece with a rifle and a small extra order/flashpulse battery, although this time not in the form of 8pt REMs - is not something you can identify an army by. And it's pretty surprising to hear that this is the most unique experience MO can deliver when it's being sold by knights and its logo basically consists of knight logos in the builder.

    Concept you've brought in your second list is more interesting. Sure, "a lot of HI" is not something unique, but their reliable combat prowess, ensured by linkability and re-linkability of different models is at least a distinctive trait when you compare it to similarly built IA list that instead has a different motif - pumping almost two times more orders into a single combat group than an average Infinity list can for some really long expeditions and maneuvers with what amounts to a single concentrated tool while having some active turn resilience to ensure you can actually spend all those orders in a useful manner while your blunt instrument is confronted with an opponent who shoots back.
     
  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    No, they have TO HMG boogieman to efficiently kill any ARO bravo enough to stand. (hilariously having problems with killing Kamau)
     
  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    1. Hac Tao HMG isn't used in IA

    2. Rui Shi with MM:L2, inside 16" or simply a linked Haidao MSV2 Sniper doesn't have any difficulties killing a Kamau, linked or otherwise.

    3. My dude, watching you this entire thread, as well as watching you selectively clip out data (rather than showing everything) really makes it appear that you're emotionally invested in making MO bad, so now you're simply reduced to making statements that only support your emotionel investment. Relax man, or take a break from the army. I don't know what other advice I can give you.
     
    ambisinister likes this.
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