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A List of Demands: Negotiating ISS adjustments

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Weathercock, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    Why not have a paramedic kuang shi? In this proposed environment where you cannot take a cheapskate Lt? You cannot even bring a 3 point warcor! My aim was not to reduce the ISS power level just what and how the orders are allocated.

    Also note that none of the above profile suggestions should not be ported into vannila Yu Jing I've spent the last year playing Yu Jing and it's outrageously potent in comparison with its first sectorial.

    So the reason for the KS paramedic is that cyberpunk2077 trailer, a need for list options and as I see if there is no reason a kuang Shi can't perform complex tasks. They have normality+ but always with the proviso that someone else controls their why?
    Costing? 7 points as you say 1 swc might be too much but there should be a charge for something like that. I'm not dead set on value just on the presence of the option, if you'd asked me a year ago I wouldn't have advocated this.

    I find the marksman rifle appealing because +3 is a big advantage over +0 on an attack piece with a B4 weapon. The x-visor makes for a better aro piece mitigating smart play by your opponent. But relegating bao to aro duty only is futile and one of the reasons their link does not see play, it's fragile inflexible AND expensive worst of all worlds. Make it flexible and that's a step in the right direction for 150 points it needs to do real work not sit in the back collecting bullets, the yuan dun bao will help with that.
     
  2. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    If I were an imperial agent, I would never trust a Kuang Shi medic to fix me up. Moreover, the last thing in ISS that needs additional tools is Kuang Shi.
     
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  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree. A medic is beyond their job description.
     
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  4. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    You are probably right, remember the objective is to encourage use of 1 wound agents, pheasants, bao and zhanying will inevitably need patching up, if you start trimming cheap orders like I have done the gap needs filling and I can't see those guys getting their hands bloody trying to fix injuries.

    On the other hand an imperial agent with experience seeing the control device in action might be the only person willing to let a Kuang Shi patch them up. A Kuang Shi does whatever they are told, the agents always have their full attention, kuang Shi would happily die for one, provide repeater coverage, run into guns, mines and ambushes, why not provide other services? Where they are effective slaves historically get mission creep, sure they start out dying for their masters in the trenches but give it a few centuries of indispensability and they'll climb the social ladder. Don't get me wrong I'm playing devils advocate here but they are human and stranger things have happened.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In order to encourage the use of 1-wound agents, you're going to have to do one of the following;
    1. reduce their cost so that losing an agent is not a big deal
    2. increase their ability to take a wound and keep trucking
    3. increase their ability to avoid taking a wound, without making them too costly

    Generally speaking, the faction's primary aesthetic is a basic disregard for human life, and the Sophotect does an admirable job of covering downed agents' asses in ISS. Yes, she's alone but let's look back at that disregard for human life and remember that they who get disabled have failed. I also note how the concept of having doctors bring units back don't work well as a tactic in this game unless you're Haqq, for everyone else you'll need to prioritize who to spend those orders on and spend them conservatively. Also keep in mind that MediKit can't be used as part of an impetuous order.
    As for how to implement the above points, well...

    1. Cheat the system. Everywhere. SMGs and Light Shotguns to bring specific profiles down in cost. Reduce the reliance on ARM. Remove costly abilities like CoC or Sixth Sense except for specific profiles that really benefit from it.
    2. Give everyone Dogged. Give those who don't get Dogged NWI instead.
    3. Mimetism, Camo, TO and Full Auto 2 everywhere. Anything that imposes MODs.

    Clearly you can't implement everything, but number 2 on that list wouldn't be too off target.

    ---

    Celestial Guards, I'd like to see them get Zhanying basic statline (i.e. +2 CC, +1 BS, +1 ARM - maybe possibly Bioimmunity, but not Sensor nor 6S) to better reflect their actual status as being a veteran unit and the core of the ISS responsible for providing security to priority military and judicial targets as well as being essentially einsatzgruppe. It's fucking with the core of the army and with a unit that's doesn't entirely need it, but at the same time I don't think the peak-ISS lists use them much beyond being smoke and Kuang Shi delivery systems.
    You know, have them be a very clear promotion over being a Zhanshi or copper.
     
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  6. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    I have to admit I rather like the idea of the lower ranked agents hiding at the back directing their minions and filling out even more expensive links. Madtraps, hacking, sensor are the roles for them, but with chaps like Xi zhuang and the weibing in faction it's a tough sell.

    Cheating the system to make them all murder machines would be gutting, and the theme doesn't support it: hard problem, would be easy to mess and make things worse.
     
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    While I like the Sophotech in ISS, I do wish there were more doctors and engineers in ISS. It really sucks when you loose your one guy that can accomplish a mission.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but at the same time that's an interesting limitation of the sectorial. Have to keep that premium Docineer alive.
     
  9. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    My biggest issue with IS at the moment is that agent ranks don't feel like logical progressions down the same pathway and that two random units (Zhanying and Kanren) have less willpower.

    Given the new skills and syngergies, the best roll for pheasants is to be a link booster. Wildcard, NCO and specialist replacing COC on some profiels I think is a good mix. MA can go down to 1, CC can go down a bit, PH should go up. I think if the pheasant brought the lieutenant order and a specialist into whatever link he joined, people would overlook his CC bloat, whereas COC is just too damn expensive.
     
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  10. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    How would you describe ISS's playstle? I have been playing them a lot. They where the faction that got me in the game.

    I still have not relaxed into list building or playstyle with them.

    Thanks!
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    What if you could not take a CG LT if you had higher agents around? That your highest-ranking agent had to be the LT?



    Zhanying are strange, they're other police that stubborned their way to a solved case, which brought them to the Dragon's attention. But by that definition, they probably should have Agent WIP14.

    Kanren are undercover Agents, so I'd really like to see a Kanren impersonator. Or have all of them capable of cybermask, without KHDs.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling that any level of Impersonation, be it basic or inferior, might super-charge ISS. Impersonation is stupidly powerful, even at the more reasonable level of inferior.
     
  13. Khalipo

    Khalipo Well-Known Member

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    I would kill having a kanren specialist with madtraps.

    Like o12...
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    If I ever wanted a rule not in the game it would be that one.
    Letting a Fusilier command from the back is one the the best things about Infinity.
    No need to have the fancy mage, dude on big monster, giant death robot, hero unit, legendary strategist or whatever take command.

    Lt Pedro from Squad B fresh outta the academy will do, because his dad know's all the important people and he needs to be groomed for the best military career money can buy. Just like real life - love that part of the game.
     
    #54 Teslarod, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think i'd like it if the Lt. at higher ranks had things to go along with it. Sort of like the Hsien +1 SWC.

    Crane: Stategos L2
    Pheasant: Strategos L1
    Zhanying: Lt. level 2
    Celestial Guard: Nothing

    I'd like Countermeasures in there somewhere too. I actually think the Kanren would be good for it.
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Agreed to a certain degree, although I do like the guys who can do nothing but command well. 20-30 points LI with dedicated Lt Skills are nice to have in the designspace. Nothing speaks against strategist in Kevlar being the better commander compared to the usual super Hi.
     
    #56 Teslarod, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  17. SpectralOwl

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    While I'd absolutely love a Kanren that can actually infiltrate enemy ranks, I do agree it would be insanely powerful. A real Impersonator would have to come with an absolute gutting of Kuang Shi to maintain balance, and a lot of people wouldn't like that change in play style.
    That's the good thing about ISS; even with all the authority of the Emperor, a Hsien or Crane can still wind up deferring to the wisdom of a Celestial Guard officer if they are in that Guard's jurisdiction, because said soldier will be much more knowledgeable about local conditions.

    As for what I'd like from ISS? Heavyweight Yaopu Pangguling for a quick-fix Show of Force scoring option and a slight edit to Bao to make them slightly more powerful or slightly cheaper. ISS are pretty well balanced at the moment, no need to fix what ain't broken.
     
  18. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    In one word? Technical.

    You do have a very versatile and powerful unit selection, the potential for raw aggresiveness and preassure must always be compensated with the proper backup tools, considering most pieces are expensive, squishy and in many key places AVA restricted.

    Of course, you can Wu Ming paintrain the world away and you shoukd when the mission calls for them.

    However for many missions you will find yourself struggling if you brought the innapropiate equipment, and compensating for this with raw aggresiveness can very well spell your doom, Su Jian can be overxtended very easily, alpha Strikes are crippling when succesful and your button pushers are expensive or squishy.

    You will be well advised to bring lots of flak and redundancy for board control, madtraps, Bounty Hunter(AK), Kuang shi (ofc) and Remotes, ISS DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT REMOTES.

    Also, then you have the issue of Lieutenant options, which are very limited and obvious, Sun Tze does work very well with ISS to have a safe deployment.

    Now what is a core strenght of ISS? Board Control.

    You have Sensors, you have nice Disposable explosive Kuang shi to trade up against skirmishers, Linkteams (specially destructive in linkteam), enable even more reliable smoke coverage as well as a possible attempt at repeater hacking.

    Aro Pieces are not a concern for ISS when you can Slice the Pie with Smoke and MSV2 with Hsien, or Rui shi.

    Your Holoecho SK Kan-ren is quite flexible and capable on his own, and can serve to open up some more possibilities for your midfield.

    ISS wins the game by taking the Midfield, and forcing attrition on the opponent, specially in Exclusion zone missions.

    So a Good Startup plan will always include, Flak, long range firepower and specialists.

    MSV2 and Sensor are your best buddies in this sectorial, Ammo selection is incredible tbh, adhesive, fire, viral, shock, explosive, DA, it’s all there.

    Reactive turn can become a problem however as no Su Jian or Hsien/Crane can tolerate much abuse, we do have AVA 3 of TRBOTS and Dakinis to help fill some SWC restrictions.

    This is an army that rewards positive trades with uneven odds, a Kuang Shi for example clearing up 1 skirmisher on Midfield, or said Kuang Shi Linkteam punishing a Heavy Fireteam.

    The question remains however, all-in or completely assimetrical.

    Garuda is Great, Ninja is Great, Kan Ren are Great, Sophie is great, the real issue comes from fitting all your needs without sacrificing versatility/support and board control.
     
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  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    As they say, a Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant that's still sat down.

    Of course an EOD tech at a full sprint outranks everybody.
     
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  20. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I never really thought of ISS as a board control faction. Shure we can put a lot of models on the field. Most of them are squishy. I'll work to incorporate that.

    Thanks for sharing!
     
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