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A List of Demands: Negotiating ISS adjustments

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Weathercock, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean doesn't fit lore?
    That they are regular troopers providing tactical information and coordination in the form of orders for the army?
    Or that they are treated as mindless animals, synchronized to a Celestial Guard herder who dictates what they do and when they die?
    Of course, keeping in mind that Yu Jing soldiers are described as being very uncomfortable around them, distrust them, and a Kuang Shi blowing up is described as a morale booster
     
  2. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The only problem I have with revamping Kuang Shi in such a fashion is that you either have to provide other sources of order generation to compensate, or revamp all factions towards metas that don't reward order spam so heavily.

    And it's not to say that I have a problem with either, especially the latter. I currently feel that any list with less than 14 orders at present is going to struggle for it, and I'd rather see the meta shift away from 14-17 orders being standard to something more along the line of 11-14. But that would require a lot of effort and forethought.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    My apologies but it seems you're stuck then.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That last one requires a complete rebalance, which is why I wrote it outside the list ;)
     
  5. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I like originally proposed changes very much. Subtle and thoughtful. Something that CB could actually put in without shifting ISS to completely new levels.
    I'll also finally play ISS this league season. So far, it's only theorie crafting from me.
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's probably because fluffwise g:synch is representative of remote control which doesn't fit Kuang Shi which aren't actually being remotely controlled, but on the other hand you're right the rules are also used with models such as antipodes which doesn't make alot of sense in the lore either.
     
  7. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
    Warcor

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    G:sync encompases all troopers that lack the initiative to act independently and must be ordered by a handler, from the simple geist operated devabot to the complex relation of a dog face and his antipode K9 unit.

    If kuang shi where reduced to animal inteligence, that might be the case, but the fluff shows no reduction of his capabilities, just changing their loyalties, they remain highly independent as shown by their fury characteristic.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'd argue it fits a lot better than the current incarnation where they are trusted and trained soldiers. I also think it would make for interesting game play. Also, Antipodes aren't unintelligent and there is a unit that's capable of acting on their own (in a pack). The most accurate representation is for them to be irregular (capable of receiving orders, but not at all trusted to provide coordination), but I don't find that to offer interesting game play.
    No, the treatment doesn't just change loyalties and fury isn't an indicator of independence, one causes and the other show a complete break down of the individual's sense of self-preservation.
     
  9. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I'd hope in the next edition fury gets taken out of the game entirely. Suicidal bravery shouldn't make units more common. And no sense of self preservation already has a three leveled skill.
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Generally not bad, but as noted the WarCrimes Division (gods how I hate their fluff) would need some serious fluff adjustments to allow those fireteams.



    How often do people even take that one? I mean, yes, I built one (of the 8 KS I have), but that was almost strictly to eat up points without going over Combat Group size limits.


    Yeah, brainwashed to the point of not having any independent thoughts!


    G:sync also applies to the Uberfallkommando's pupniks.

    But honestly, either G:Sync or Puppetmaster would be a better fit for Kuang Shi than their current XIMP/Regular status.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    They still think independently. One of the things their bomb collars are made to detect and auto detonate on is Kuang Shi attempting to desert the field of battle, that's directly mentioned in their fluff blurb. They're still people, just mentally fucked up. Think like Reek/Theon from GoT.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You don't translate this to the game format by having them provide tactical feedback to soldiers who don't trust them and want them dead, though.

    Game mechanics should be seen as abstractions, not absolutes. How would you represent a person who has had their identity smashed, a bomb collar fitted to their necks to ensure absolute loyalty, and their will broken down sufficiently that they may not be rational anymore? A special version of G: Servant (so that it doesn't require or benefit Doctor/Engineer) does come to mind, as does Puppetactica rules, not only Synch. Regular does not. The abstraction being that they behave as if they were remotely controlled, not that they are remotely controlled - although I suppose that someone who will do your every command as if it was handed down to them directly from God does kind of make them act like a high-level AI.

    Or have them forced into a special Fireteam with their controller if Ghost is so alien to you. Bomb collar of course going off if the controller dies.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's what the irregular order represents, which realistically is going on fluff is what the Kuang Shi should be.
     
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  14. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    As a Long time ISS player I must admit I find the sectorial to be very good even if I struggled for a couple of years to grasp their gameplay style...

    1st. Bao Troopers need to have Hacker devices, I don’t care which device they give them, but give them one, in their Splash art as poster boys of the ISS they always appear working side by side with Yaoxie Remotes and a Pheasant...

    2nd. regarding Bao troopers and Pheasants: Bao need to be able to form their own Fireteam, without having to include a Pheasant, they also need a Mid Range Weapon a Marksman rifle (even the basic one) would be perfect this will certainly help on List building allowing us to pick between a Non hackable, Prone-Able troop and a Yaoxie Rui Shi.

    3rd. Pheasants, give them a Grenade Launcher, preferably the Stun Version they already Carry, their PH is hogwash to begin with, to shave off points I would give them the Kan Ren Treatment, have them be CC 19 instead of 22, the Melee aspect of the Pheasant should be a deterrent not a plausible melee attacker, change their CC weapon to shock CC weapon or AP CC weapon, X-Visor needs to go away.

    4. Following on Pheasants: Haris Option is overcosted as fuck, allow 1 Celestial Guard or a Chaiyi to be part of this Haris as they currently roost comfortably in the deployment zone while thematically the other agents deal with heavy llifting, and Bao are too expensive right now to waste 3SWC on haris + BAO MSR. +1 to Wildcard status.

    5. Crane Agents: These guys are Fine as they are, minor fixes or versatility I would give them is, allow Spitfire Version to Carry Sensor (instead or along X-Visor), if anyone should carry Hand Grenades is this guy, Preferably the Stun Variety hell, I would even go with a Flash Grenade (Flash ammo instead of Stun), This guy eats orders up for breakfast lunch a Dinner and costs 1/6 of a List having him have Technical toolboxy decisions for his midfield Brawling is a must when having to walk him all the way from deployment zone with simply a Mid range weapon, this would pair nicely with his LT profiles for the extra order even if you do have to pay the command token to reform a fireteam once he uses it.

    6. Zhanyings: Wildcard Status if nothing else.

    7. Weibings: Need to be able to run in Duo Or haris Fireteams, else the Crane and Kan Ren stomp over his ground too much, considering our hackers are not cheap and he already is in a Sectorial with lots of anti-camo options.

    8. Celestial guards: If they can enter more fireteams I would certainly use them a lot more than mere Escorts for my crane agents, their role is supposed to be support which they already excel at, Light Grenade Launcher Guy should carry stun Grenades instead of normal ones, otherwise he seems difficult to fit in lists due to Him eating SWC, Spitfire Guy: Marksman rifle please or a Red Fury if that would reduce SWC cost.

    9. Hsien: Nothing to improve or add this guy is in a perfect position right now.

    10. Sophotect: She’s great, but she’s the only engineer in a Sectorial that heavily relies and rewards Order Efficiency, giving Enginerd to a CG or Zhanying would be awesome we also are able to enlist a massive amount of Rems and do not rely overly on Healing up HI but rather Repairing Rems.

    Overall: Do not let Wildcards enter Kuang shi Linkteams (Unless it’s zhanying or Pheasant).

    Shameless wishlist: pheasants with Counter-intelligence, Sforza FTO (the Dahshat version Linkable), Miranda Regular on her Own without needing the Hunting party to get it.

    I believe my proposed ideas to be beneficial for the ISS as a whole without changing their gameplay style, just a bit more optimal, hell someone will slap me l, but I’d rather err on the side of prudency, don’t make Zhanying Madtraps Wildcard, this would allow an unprecedented level of Madtraps abuse which already is quite good as it currently stands.
     
    #34 Gero, Nov 17, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Forgot one. Sun Tze V2.

    Equipment: Multispectral Visor L1
    Skills: Valour: No Wound Incapacitation, Total Immunity, Marksmanship L1, Counterintelligence
    Sun Tze V2 (Tactical Awareness, Chain of Command) :: Multi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse :: Knife, Pistol :: 58 :: 0
    Sun Tze V2 (Tactical Awareness, Chain of Command) :: Multi Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse :: Knife, Pistol :: 62 :: 1,5
    Sun Tze V2 Lieutenant L2 (Strategos L3, Advanced Command) :: Multi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse :: Knife, Pistol :: 57 :: 0
    Sun Tze V2 Lieutenant L2 (Strategos L3, Advanced Command) :: Multi Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse :: Knife, Pistol :: 61 :: 1,5

    Sun V1:
    Put Strategos on the LT only.

    Not blatantly trying to buff the bugger, mostly just trying to keep him on point of being a command unit. If I were to blatantly buff him, I'd say "Veteran L2". Also, as far as I can tell, Counterintelligence doesn't cost anything, Taagma Schemer might be a bad one to reverse on, though, since that bugger blatantly doesn't pay for Counterintelligence, Holo1, Triad, nor the increased CC over a Kappa.
     
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  16. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I would not say that something in Infinity is "unplayable", because it is not true in the meaning of the word and you can play it anyway even with good results, but they far from optimised due to an profile that dated back to the first Paradiso book.

    Anyway. We all know Baos are too expensive for what they bring and I like some of your ideas - especially to give them some specialist options and riotstoppers.

    The are in dire need of a higher burst weapon and it is a waste, that they have no specialst options.
    I would like to see the Mksm option form the Yuandun PDF and a spitfire or red fury. FO and Hacker Options look very fluffy on them and changing LSG vs light riotstoppers are also cool lorewise. I would keep the bio visor option to keep a profile cheap. And yes they should be able to form at least a haris on their own.

    Yes to this ones. Though Pheasant needs a complete rework (I see someone menitoned higher PH, I can only second that, they are trained in MA, so they will have more then average strenght due to the training, or not?) I would love to see them as SWC free Haris to lead any linkable troops of a lower ranks in ISS except KS.

    For the Kanren I could see a simple change: Chaincolt vs Light Riotstopper - that would be cool and thematic.
     
    #36 archon, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  17. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    SMGs for Bao
    KHDs for Bao
    SMR for Bao
    -3 BTS for Bao

    NCO versions of most pheasant profiles, minor CC reduction, PH increase
     
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  18. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    I actually disagree with the PH increase on the pheasant Guys, there’s a reason why he pays for MA2 already, considering he can gang up with his Link members or coordinated orders to give himself an edge seems more thematic for them and Bao, also he can carry Madtraps, which is probably why his CC prowess is held back.

    That’s why I would replace his Hand grenades with a light grenade Launcher.

    Edit: then again, Crane Agents can carry madtraps in their FT as well as Wuming and Zhanying... hmmmmm

    Edit 2: Give Bao Specialist Options KHD and AHD being the ones I would like the most, FO through smoke would be awesome!

    Edit 3: Give Pheasant a Knife pls.
     
    #38 Gero, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  19. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    Alterations for ISS?

    Aim: force the use of the actual agents as the core of the sectorial. Reasoning: single wound agents currently don't work out well due to cost and equipment bloat. But they should because we are playing the emperor's agency here...

    I agree with improving agent fireteam access.

    I would extend zhanying options. Up to 2 zhanying may join a bao link. Pheasants = zhanying for fireteam purposes. Sforza = bao for fireteam purposes.

    Things to delete:

    Celestial guard Lt! This is now vanilla only, there are reasons for this
    All models generating irregular orders (still my pet peeve)

    Things to add

    A set of shiny new Lt options to replace the defunct celestial guard (which invalidates many higher rank agent Lts by its mere existence):

    Zhanying hacker
    Zhanying missile launcher
    Crane assault hacker
    Kanren combi

    Take any of these and you might find yourself in need of a CoC pheasant.

    Pheasant will gain journalist on some profiles (replace kinematica and the unsuitable warcor)

    Bao marksman rifle! Possibly with NCO (only place to put NCO to my mind)

    Kuang Shi paramedics profile 8 points and 1swc still has a chain rifle.
    This guy is here to murder your 1wound agents in the midfield on 8+. I think this guy is necessary to make pheasants, zhanyings and bao more threatening.
    My take on kuang Shi is that regular impetuous and linkable is highly suitable. Mind control in the real world is extremely effective. The kuang Shi get pleasure from suicide, battle and indeed any action the celestial guard controller demands of them. As such they do not suffer, do not feel tortured and would happily explain that their condition is ideal. The moral hazard is real and people subject to current mind control (still in its infancy) report life-changing levels of satisfaction focus, sense of purpose, flow and contentment when under. Freedom of will, sense of self are both illusions, mind control ultimately proves this kuan shi confront this reality and should make you morally uncomfortable.

    Anyway to change the subject the 5 man bao link with Sforza a zhanying hmg pheasant specialist and a couple of bao for aro duty probably offers a potent alternative to the Wu Ming link. The Wu Ming link can now benefit from in built pheasant KHD. Hopefully with these changes lower order counts with some bloated light infantry become more effective and higher order counts utiliting cheap 5pt kuang Shi backed by cheap REMS and high cost heavies less so!
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While I certainly don't agree with your assessment of the Celestial Guard LT (typically they're the choice because either the Pheasant CoC is far too expensive to support your costlier choices or you've chosen not to use agents or you're going for cheapskates option in which case none of the proposed agents were an option to begin with), but why Kuang Shi Paramedic? It makes no sense giving the order spam list a specialist option, thereby increasing their relevancy if it wasn't for the 1 SWC which should ensure no one takes them which just contributes to profile bloat. Also, what 1-point gear would increase them to 8 points?

    Also, ever since Bounty Hunters got regular, only the longest service ISS merc profiles remain irregular.

    P.s. Why Marksman Rifle on a unit that's got X-visors everywhere?