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A couple of questions to the CB staff about fluff direction and the Infinity fandom

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Apr 27, 2018.

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  1. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    hard for us to know if cb had any idea theyd get this reaction like are they back at hq rubbing their hands with glee at how crazy its driven some people?
     
  2. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    Maybe. I hadn't really thought of it. I think more than anything they are probably confused at why some people are getting worked up over a game. In the end it's a business decision to move the story the direction they want. Same thing with ITS. If you don't like it, ignore it, vote with your feet and/or wallet. I did that with ITS. I don't like it so I don't play it. I don't let it bog me down.
     
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  3. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    I'm gonna bet they expected everything and are just going for the stare contest win.
     
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  4. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    I think were back at "oh no my minis are totally evil i cant play the game". Cb prolly realized they werent grimdark enough to compete with the big boys and its only a matter of time now before we get a Cangas Pain Engine sculpt ;)

    spanish_talos.jpg
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I perceived Sun Tzu's behavior as being meant to represent Aleph's viewpoint, not the less-evil portion of Yu Jing. He's also completely ignored.

    It's not presented as there being a moral line that Yu Jing won't cross, merely showing that Yu Jing is so WEAK that they cannot stop the Japanese from leaving. PanO had completely taken control of their territorial waters, and given how weapon ranges work was capable of bombarding the hell out of mainland China.

    So, the USAriadnan government is clearly written to be intentionally evocative of the frontier-era US, with Antipodes playing the part of the native Americans. As you might remember from your history books, there were lots of massacres and atrocities committed against the natives by the US in that era - are you willing to hold the US to the same standard as China in this context, that they should not be allowed to be portrayed positively in media because it'd be insulting to the native Americans, or some other group?

    Given that the actions of the Imperial Service *actively made the insurrection worse*, by making it clear to the Japanese population that their options were 1. die or 2. join the rebellion, then no, you could not make that utilitarian argument. It comes down to "Yu Jing acted dumb because Yu Jing is evil and evil people engage in needless cruelty, even when it harms their position" it seems.

    That's kind of what I'm getting at with the original post - since Yu Jing seems to be not only accepting of ethnic cleansing, but enthusiastic about it, is this a change or has Yu Jing always been meant to be portrayed this way?

    Yes, and it seems to have been deployed fairly casually. "How are we going to hype Uprising/Treason? I know! We'll make Yu Jing look really villainous by having them engage in ethnic cleansing against the Japanese! That'll build hype!"

    Yeah, a lot of Yu Jing players feel uneasy. And the question is, is Yu Jing being pushed into the role of a setting villain over time? If so, why are the Chinese, specifically, being portrayed as monolithically evil within the setting? And since it feels like a bait-and-switch, *that's* why people think CB has gone off the rails.

    You say that any government that would allow Kuang Shi would answer with brutal repression, and you're right, but they also likely wouldn't be so bad at the propaganda game that they'd lose the rebellion on that alone. "Yu Jing must act stupid because Yu Jing is evil and evil is stupid."

    Considering that the O-12/geopolitics situation is different from that of the modern world (unrealistically so), I don't think it serves as fodder for thought about real-world situations. Just ask @psychoticstorm if he thinks you can draw parallels from the situation presented in the story and modern day.


    If everyone was portrayed like this in the setting, that'd be one thing. But the Chinese/Yu Jing are portrayed as *particularly* black-hearted, potentially veering into a retrograde Yellow Peril-style depiction.

    How old are you? This is entirely orthogonal to the conversation we're having here. The fact of the matter is is that Yu Jing is being portrayed as morally inferior to the other human factions in the setting.

    Considering you made a thread saying that you don't want IA to be released... to be honest, you come off as someone who cheerleads PanO hard enough that you just want to see the Yu Jing faction fail.
     
    #165 Hecaton, Apr 30, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Some edgy stuff you refuse to deal with. Looking as this thread's purpose this remark is a little rich coming from your camp.
    Ignoring every positive aspect that opposes your oppinion to start another circlejerk about how CB has dishonoured you, your dog and your family and made your favourite metal minis play "the slightly more easy to identify than usual" bad boys in a war setting where everyone is guilty.

    As others have pointed out to you repeatedly, you're being willfully ignorant by cherry picking things as they suit you. CA is "the" bad guy and Tohaa are the ones using the entire Human Spere as a meatshield against them. That is if you absolutely need to paint things black and white. I'd claim things are plenty grey on all fronts.
    The things you're so concerned about is some small fry stuff on a small scale you're blowing out of proportion. To do so is just human tendency, so don't be offended.
    You're simply going to have to expand your viewpoint to see that the particular event, you're dead set on holding up as an example, hardly matters in the bigger picture.


    Oh my, I wasn't aware that matters, but oh well I'll satisfy your curiosity. It should suffice to say I'm in my late twenties, does this change anything specific? Do let me know what you're going to need that information for, I'd be very interested to know.

    Like which part? The one where the JSA on the other side of the conflict use their linetroops as glorified cannon fooder or perhaps the part where they're using terroristic acts as part of their military strategy?
    Or the part where PanO backs the revolt of a regime with no regard for their own lower class of people just to gain ground on YJ? Something that appears to me as remarkably similar what the CIA pulled in South America and Iran during the 50s among others.

    lmao grow up a little will ya mate?
    Take a step back from your paranoia and consider the path you are taking - namely one where you're apparently angsty enough about your favourite tabletop faction to accuse other people of pretty much anything.
    I like YJ mechanically a lot more than PanO and that is what matters all that matters to me. Otherwise I wouldn't own any YJ.
    There have been times when I wished I didn't pick up PanO first.

    Me cheerleading PanO *chuckle*. Man that was a good one, thanks for that. I'll remember that when I start the inevitable rant about useless clones and uninspired Profiles once Varuna joins the fray.
    I'd be game for cheerleading Infinity in general though.

    What currently turns me off about YJ is that it means to be assosciated with... well certain people, who behave most unreasonable and seem to be so confused about their own inferiority complexes they need to project it onto a tabletop Faction. And while they're at it they feel the need to drag everyone down with them if they can't have it their way.
    Mind you that the blame is on no one specific and this has been going on for some time, Wotan to be precise. Just a certain light the YJ community appears in compared to lets say the Artichokes, Nomads, CA, PanO or everyone else.

    @Macbain also has a great collection of Infinity memes, including some comedy gold from N1 and N2 about whiny YJ players. So pardon me if I'd be inclined to suggest this has been the case for much longer than I have been playing.
     
    #166 Teslarod, Apr 30, 2018
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  7. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I like your analogy. Maybe we should be worried about that Uprising is the beginning of a new era in Infinity background. A background filled with realistic horror of what governments do. For a fluffbunny like me, that could be upsetting indeed. Maybe now the gloves will come off and all factions will hit with all the brutality they got? I am not sure whether I will like it. I agree with you - I preferred it when all the violence happened during clandestine black operations with hardly any civilians involved. (The rules even make you lose the game if you hurt a civilian!) But the world is not like that at all. The violence can't stay hidden forever and contained to secret operations.

    As for the communism, from my political point of view, communism is handled very well. You have the authoritarian types in Yu Jing (derived from the Maoists) and you have the egalitarian anarcho-syndicalists in Corregidor. May I go off topic for two sentences and quote Bakunin? "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." The Uprising book covers exactly that.



    I am a fluffbunny. I enjoy the game more when I can immerse myself in the gaming world. Last weekend I played a four player game. I played with Ariadna alongside Yu Jing against the JSA and StarCo. We had fun talking about the background. It was eerie fighting with the Yu Jing, but it made sense to fight the JSA for my Teseum mines. I did not like shooting at the StarCo, but such were the positions both of us had in the game.


    Yes, it would annoy me very much if the USA would be portrayed in an entirely positive way. The difference between Ariadna and the USA is the following: The Ariandnans came to the planet not knowing that there would be Antipodes. They could not leave Dawn once they realised the Antipodes are intelligent beings.

    Now, of course, the Ariadnans do colonize. I am not sure whether they do it with the genocidal aggression that happened in the USA, Australia, etc.

    I have thought about it. If CB came up with a storyline that Ariadna seeks to drive an Antipode nation off their land and clear the forests because they want to exploit new mining territory, I would feel disturbed and unsure whether I want to play this kind of background. So yes, I do feel for the Yu Jing players. I have to admit that I hope that the background will not get as grim realistic as that. So far, I have seen Ariadna as a settler nation like Australia with a dark past and questionable present, but not entirely evil. I can live with playing them so far.


    Your question still stands, we cannot answer it, only CB can. You really should mail the question to CB, I am very interested in their answer. I would speculate that CB feels that they have to write their story in a realistic way. They want to have this uprising for various reasons, one of is that the author feels compelled to do so by the elements of his story themselves. I can imagine that CB will want to redeem Yu Jing at some point, but for the moment, they look very villainous indeed. I agree with you that Yu Jing was always the faction where the negative aspect was more apparent. The other factions (apart from Druze and Tunguska) are able to hide their villainy better.

    As for the utalitarian argument, I also agree with you that it would not be justified, but this is how I believe such a government would argue. Hence I said "You could get in character and argue this way."
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's not what I asked; I'm not sure I was clear. You mentioned that it would be disrespectful to the victims of the PRC to portray Yu Jing as anything but villains; I pointed out that the same should apply to USAriadna due to the country's historical mistreatment of native Americans. The point is that USAriadna is portrayed as flawed but not incapable of heroism; you were saying that it would be disrespectful to portray Yu Jing as capable of heroism.
     
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  9. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    What I said or at least what I intended to say is that it would be disrespectful to portray the government of Yu Jing as anything but villainous. This is because the description of the government comes very close to the current one. If CB would have chosen for the Chinese to develop a more democratic government for the Infintyverse, I would have been happy with that. I am certain that the Chinese are capable of doing so in the next 175 years.

    As for the USA, anything resembling the USA should be described in at least a dark grey tone. I don't think Ariadna has to be described as entirely negative.

    I think the way out of this dilemma is for the background in the future to describe how brave the Yu Jing army is fighting aliens on Paradiso and elsewhere. This way the Yu Jing players can feel that their armies are fighting the good fight, even though they are directed by a brutal regime.

    Anyone who picks up Druze or Tunguska knows that they are playing mafia. Anyone who plays Yu Jing should know that they are playing authoritarian (ex-) communists.
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @prophet of doom Your opinion's hypocritical. The same should apply to the US; it is basically impossible to qualify/differentiate any sort of moral culpability between them.

    The Yu Jing military is part of the government. Portraying them as anything but villainous would go against your earlier statement.

    I would also append to your ideas: anyone who picks up PanO should know that they are playing Harvey Weinstein's goons.
     
  11. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    The genocide against Native Americans is in the past. Certainly, the descendants still suffer disadvantage they have inherited from the crimes committed. The modern US government is certainly not good, but not all aspects of it are evil.

    The YJ government is clearly modelled on the current Chinese government, and I can't find anything good in them. That is my distinction. You can call this hypocritical if you wish.

    Certainly, the military is arm of the government. In this fictional universe, the YJ government uses its military for brutal repression, but also to defend the Human Sphere from being invaded by the Combined Army. Both out of self-interest. YJ players have to deal with playing the army of an authoritarian one-party regime. One way they can feel better about that is to focus on the fight against the CA. On this front, the YJ soldiers are bravely defending humanity, even though they have a villainous master.

    Sorry, I don't know who Harvey Weinstein is. If you mean corrupt capitalists, yes, PanO players should know this. A lot of blood has been shed for the sake of capitalist profit. I think the capitalists are smarter than the communists when it comes to propaganda. People are willing to buy this "for the sake of freedom, democracy and market economy" rhetoric.
     
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    This is a very good analogy.

    I had also thought that the Kuang Shi were the darkest part of Yu Jing.

    Now that seems to be the lightest part of Yu Jing, with the premier counter-insurgency experts in the entire Sphere going full "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." instead of following their training and trying to convince the noncombatant Japanese civilians that the only people that needed to worry about the Imperial Service killing them were those shooting at the Imperial Service.


    Could you play the SS in a WW2 game? How about the VC in a Vietnam game? Al Qaeda or DAESH/ISIS in a modern game?
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I can and I will. It's also worth noting that USAriadna is specifically portrayed as interacting with the Antipodes in ways analogous to how the US government interacted with various native groups as it expanded westward; so it's specifically evocative of the times of massacres and ethnic cleansings of those native Americans. Glossing over that is just as disrespectful as what you talk about; saying that we're not allowed to imagine a future where the successor state to the PRC isn't entirely villainous because of how you feel about them now is just small-minded.
     
  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Save for there not effectively existing any noncombatant Japanese, with all of the areas being in open revolt, aiding and abetting the troops in the field every way they could, plus the fact that the Uprising itself was triggered by attacks by the Tatenokai in the midst of the protests from the populace. When the entire populace is in revolt, it’s not out of the question to leave the sorting of the Albigenses to the Lord.
     
  15. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I am certainly not glossing over the genocide committed against the Native Americans. If the US government of the 18th and 19th century would be depicted as anything but genocidal, I would get very angry indeed. The modern government is a different matter. Here we get into the grey territory.

    I have said before that the YJ government is nice in comparison to modern regimes, but maintains the same mentality. How would you want the YJ government to handle the Uprising, staying true to the background? I don't see any other way than brutal repression the way they were described in the past.

    Kuang Shi are certainly not lighter than this brutal repression. They are the same thing. Kuang Shi are political prisoners, people opposed to the system for good reasons. Yu Jing will turn Japanese into Kuang Shi now.

    And yes, the Antipodes are the Ariadnan version of Kuang Shi. At least they are not meant to explode. And they have the smarts to run away as soon as the control device handler dies. I refused to buy antipodes for a long time because i was so opposed to the idea. I carved my own anarcho-syndicalist section of Ariadna. Now I just play them because they are effective. Fluff is not everything.
     
    #175 prophet of doom, May 1, 2018
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    *Looks at own avatar*

    No, Yu Jing is not my favorite faction in the setting. I'm just concerned that the story is becoming... unsophisticated. There's definitely been what I perceive to be a lack of respect from CB to their customer base over this whole event, though. As well as from the WarCors to the playerbase at large.


    You say it's "small fry" stuff when an entire release cycle is focusing on it. The game spends more time talking about the atrocities that Yu Jing commits than the ones that CA does... and that means something. You can't just say "ignore it" when it's part of the focus of the fluff, and nothing good is shown of Yu Jing in the interim.

    Hell, maybe I'm upset that Yu Jing will take the mantle of "villain" from my pet faction's shoulders.



    Mostly because the way you were talking like "listen here, let me explain how the world works" made it seem like you were much younger. Because if you were, it would make sense for you to be that clueless.

    Others, including @Section9 , have elaborated on why Uprising seems to ignore how nation-states actually politick in these kinds of situations.


    PanO is described as participating, at least in part, due to international outcry over the human rights abuses of Yu Jing - with no international outcry over the concomitant abuses of the JSA. Moreover, the JSA itself is described in terms of both good *and* bad... but Yu Jing is described as *all* bad, enthusiastically killing Japanese civilians. It's not a balanced portrayal. PanO are described as the heroes of the story, along with the JSA - Yu Jing is *all* villain.


    I don't know how offensive this is supposed to be.

    It also matters to you that IA not get a release. It was important for you that Yu Jing get *nothing* to counterbalance the loss of JSA. I don't think you appreciate Yu Jing mechanically, either, since then you would have cared about the loss of profiles from it.

    That's nice. I'll cheerlead for Infinity when it does good, and criticize it when I perceive it as doing bad.

    Well, CB set YJ up for failure in those circumstances, and again here. Complaints are justified. I guess you'd prefer to be associated with people who don't say a word when they get bent over by a company they've purchased products from... that's who you'd prefer to be associated with? People with no self-respect?

    You're not self-aware enough to realize that you're suffering from confirmation bias.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Didn't know the JSA had access to a sepsitor... or that the Imperial Service was incompetent enough to miss this level of radicalization among the populace. We're talking orders of magnitude less competent than the US's current FBI.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If I thought re-writing the setting in my head was worthwhile I wouldn't make this thread. Part of what we pay for is the setting.

    The thing is, though, that the USAriadnan government owes more to the 18th and 19th century US government than the modern one. It's intentionally evocative of frontier expansion America - complete with a native population that wars are fought with, down to the massacres and scalping. So by saying that you don't think the USAriadnans should be uniformly villanous, you're endorsing these atrocities to the same extent that you endorse the PRC's when you say that you don't think all Yuchinos should be villainous.
     
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  19. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    In that context, you are right. If USAriadna represents that era of US history, they should be nothing else than villainous. I don't collect them anyway.

    I have stopped with my anarcho-syndicalist Ariadnan fan fiction. I know play them as they are and accept that they are not the good guys. I don't play USAriadna, btw.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    For the Harvey Weinstein bit... Weinstein is a movie exec known, recently, for being a sexual predator throughout his career. He hired ex-military (Mossad, from my understanding) personnel to intimidate and investigate some of his victims who might cause problems for him. He might have had some people killed. In any case, they would neatly slot in to what we would call "CSUs" in Infinity.

    So when you're playing Neoterra/StarCo/whatever, maybe that Designated Target you're taking out is an actress/actor that is about to go public with some PanO magnate's history that's along the same lines.
     
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