3D Camo and IMP markers

That post reeks of EGOISM. Sure, the hobby isnt cheap, sure You have to spend much and more to be able to play it. Still why go even more with it. And where it ends? Maybe we will demand of every Player to bring half a table and fully painted at that to games.

I mean sure. FOR YOU 3d Camo are cheap. For me, tokens i can make on my own for a fraction of the price are just more user friendly. And if you miss them on the table, go with it. One, two times You will miss them, the third time You will be more precise and will look harder.

Also, why shuold i spend more money cause You are sloppy with your game?
That was just rude and You didnt even try to understand the point presented.

 

Yeah You could do that. And make the game look like shit and be played with cardboard minis.

Or, You could pay attention to my deploynent and movement and play the fething game with attention to detail.

But well. What do i know?

 

I think, you ought to demand, that opponents buy double of all their camo/impersonation minis, and then paint the half of them in a camo pattern. By having the camo’ed trooper represented by the proper mini, you also avoid any ‘teleporting’ sheananigans :p

No seriously, I think this game is getting swamped in tokens. Tokens are a great bookkeeping aid, but suddenly it seems, you’re spending just as much on tokens, as you are on minis. Not to mention that I really dislike, when a bookkeeping aid has an impact on gameplay.

In regards to overseeing flat markers, then people do this all the time with full size minis too. Be a gentleman

 

I am super glad I have never come across a player so rotten and desperate as to force other players to unwittingly take AROs from flat cardboard camo markers that they didn't notice when declaring their order.

If both players agree that it is mandatory for both players to know all exiting and potential lines of fire, when an active trooper gains LOF to a model or marker on the table that the controlling player was not expecting after declaring his moves, then the players agree that a mandatory rule has been violated, and the correct and most agreeable recourse is usually to revert the game to just before the order were declared. I think most players do not feel like they deserve to declare an ARO under these circumstances.

 

Yeah, don't pay attention to the table, then call the opponent rotten and desperate for declaring ARO.

Recently we had a discussion in Rules section and I was told that using a situationally optimal way of dealing with certain reactive play was a "dick move". Admittedly, that particular one exists due to oversight in the rules, but I really wanted to make a quip on whether making any other competitive play, up to and including shooting troopers in the face or declaring an ARO is "a dick move" as well. Little did I know that it, in fact, is.

Look, if your opponent allows you to undo that move or doesn't declare ARO because he's sure you didn't see the marker on a particularly colorful or busy terrain, it's him being nice. You should not feel entitled to it every time to the point of insulting people for not letting your mistakes slide in a competitive game.

That said, better visibility is always nice, so there's that.

 

You can't see a flat marker on a rooftop from the position of a model on the ground. How much time should someone spend checking for things like that before they are no longer sloppy and should declare? If one isn't being forthright with tricky LOF info like that, and expects to generate AROs as a result, it's conduct deserving of insults.

And as for your colourful terrain example: You reward game breaking behavior with this attitude. If it is just "being nice" to let people undo orders incurring AROs from holy communion wafers that they didn't see, why not just convert your models to be slightly higher than your base and paint them the colour of the table you normally play on, whilst dimming the lights of your store.

 

You aren't there on the ground with your model 95% of the time you're playing. If you only start checking surroundings after activating a model, I'm not sure how do you make decisions to activate said model in the first place.

I don't expect you to generate an ARO for me unknowingly, but I can't make you pay attention. You are free to take your insults back, I have no use for them.
While we are at it, I think it's a bit rude to waste your opponent's gaming evening by making half-assed effort at playing to begin with.

Or, you know, playing dumb calling "I haven't noticed" to avoid that ARO intentionally, yeah?
Just saying it goes both ways.

Seriously though. You're saying as if this happens on purpose. Have you ever seen typical terrain in good gaming clubs? Even cheaply done tables will have a multitude of cardboard containers of all colors. More elaborated ones, often picturing parts of some town with all those colorful shops, billboards and buildings in general. Terrain like that is built to be used for years to come. Meanwhile, during that period people will come and go, with their armies painted differently, and their markers that may also end up being of different colors. Something like a player not noticing an "appropriately" colored marker on a similarly colored box/roof/whatever is bound to happen once in a while. You may get warned during your declaration, you may be offered another way around the issue, but again, that's the opponent being nice. You can't expect him to comment on your every move and generally play your declarations for you, as well as you can't expect him to turn down 100% legal plays because you're not focusing (playing with such people is already stressful enough).

That's not to mention that insulting people over a game is already a ground enough not to invite you ever again. Our local community is far from being, er, polite people, and salt is occasionally unreal, but even we tend not to do that.
Granted, we know each other for years and we wouldn't be playing if we couldn't stomach each other's language and antics, so maybe it's just that.

 

If the active player sees the wafer beforehand, and wanted to avoid it, why would they intentionally trigger it then play dumb to avoid it - Wouldn't it make more sense never to trigger it in the first place? Or are you saying you could play dumb to escape a 'gotcha' situation that should never have arisen in the first place if LOF info was being properly communicated?

 

Because you want a free pass where you aren't sure Cautious Movement would work?

 

That's a good answer, I hadn't considered it. That said, this is a wonderful incentive for the reactive player to volunteer LOF information in an open and honest manner - then they can't play dumb!

 

To be fair though. Camo markers are only a small part of markers/tokens you are going to use. Even if you order cooler looking 3D ones, I doubt it will be comparable to a price of a single extra mini or so (unless you have that specific style of playing Ariadna / Shas). If your local group is more comfortable like that, maybe that's a good quality of life investment.

I mean, I'd rather tell that in advance than get into tensions, at least when I see it early.

 

Remind me where did i say anything card board is ok? I do t even like CB's cardboard terrain to begin with.

With self made token, i mean 3d Camo from warsenal costs 2,5$ a piece. Making acryllic flat tokens, i can make whole playset of tokens (Camo, orders, statuses and so on) for less than 10$.

So please stop right there.

And as to ARO from a 'wafer' u didnt see matter, I can let it slide one or two times. Or in obvious situation where i can see You made a mistake. But play sloppy repeatedly and You shuold be pinished. Only in that way we can be better at this game and only in this way You will learn it.

Also if we can retract orders from suprising AROs, what is the point of AROs anyway. Lets just assume that You wont trigger any and play along...

P. S. the more i read Hungalong posts the more i think he is either trolling us or is Just dumb

 

I can agree on that. We stop fireing and go our ways.

Acryllic is my minimum. Something i wouldnt play without. But if U want card board wafers go with it. Just dont make em 3d cause that is just painful to look at.

P. S. Being flippant and talking only in hyperboles is kina being dumb tho.

 

@Varred

The question was if 3D camo tokens should be a must have and personly i would wish everyone would use 3D tokens.
As i dont get many games in a year it helps alot and can speed up the game.
And they are not that much expensive. A customeeple set of 5 tokens with bases is about 4,5 € so 10 tokens are cheaper than a Infinity miniature und i can get along with them in my typical list.

For me its more a question of sportsmanship as i have met alot of a****le players in nearly 20 years of wargaming.

@Flipswitch
Another option would be the Impersonation markers from customeeple instead of the camo markers.

 

As****e players only last as long as the community tolerates them, otherwise they play against themselves, so I fail to see the argument you try to use there.

I am more willing to place miniatures on the table from another faction with a camo/to camo/impersonation marker by their side than I am to spend my money on a dozen or more of "nice looking acrylic pieces" as a compromise. But if it needs to be acrylic 3d silhouettes? As the saying go, two won't argue if one refuses to.

 

What irks me a lot about this discussion is simply that the markers are considered "bad form", but no mention has been made to CB miniatures which do not pay even lip service to their Silhouette Value, like Achilles V2.
Sorry if I sounded harsh on the previous post, but this kind of discussions make Infinity a "ok, you spend much less than Warhammer or other games in miniatures. You will instead spend all that money on ancilliary stuff, like seven miles of markers, tons of ink, etc...".