I am surprised Yu Jing players are so dismissive of the GŪIJIĂ. This is a faction with a much easier time supporting their TAG. Especially in N3 with ava 2 Guilang. Great units for a good price. I'd advise against two Guijia. The whole point of Pano's dual tag lists is that the tough MBT with multi-hmgs can be supported by more mobile TAGs (the Seraph and Tikbalangs) who can use their skills to reach targets that the MBT cannot. While 2 MBT do lock down the board quite well, Yu Jing has the awesome Su Jian. Its pretty tough, very fast and that climbing plus gives it the role a light TAG would have. Also, its quite cheap for the mobility and firepower it brings, 1 Guijia + 1 Su Jian cost only 147 points. You still have 50% of your list to fill out support units and specialists.
I think it's more a case of that the Guijia doesn't offer sufficient improvements in efficiency over the cheaper O-Yoroi. There's so much analysis that can be wasted on it, but if you ignore fluff I'd say O-Yoroi is the MBT. There's also something to be said for having good premium HI while having fairly basic TAGs and what that does psychologically for your perception of the TAGs. I'm not sure what faction you compare to when you say Yu Jing has a much easier time supporting our TAGs, I'd equate Pan-O with Yu Jing (better Engineer performance vs cheaper orders) while Nomads, Haqq, Aleph and Combined all have both Yu Jing and Pan-O soundly beat at support with no analysis needed.
I disagree with that. You can make decent lists with any 1 TAG in them. But aside from Geckos, I don't think you will have much success running dual TAGs in any faction. Too many points/SWC tied up in the TAGs. The only possibly-competitive dual TAG list I've come up with is a dual O-Yoroi: Japanese Sectorial Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 O-YOROI Lieutenant HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 83) O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. () O-YOROI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 83) O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. () TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 24) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army The cheaper TAGs and troops makes a huge difference in the viability of the list. But even then, you only have 2 long-range options in the list, so those two TAGs are going to draw a lot more fire than normal (which is why there are 3 engineers and 2 hackers!) ===== As far as copy/paste goes, the Squalo is a Guijia is a Lizard is a Maggie is a Raicho. OK, I know the Squalo is remote-piloted, but that's the difference. They all range from 78 (Maggie) to 91 points (Raicho). You could almost include the O-Yoroi in there, too, but I define the Main Battle TAG as having a MultiHMG. It's about like how a Leopard 2 is a Challenger 2 is an Abrams A2 is a Merkava 4 is a T64/72/80/90. At that vehicle level, crew training is more important than stats. And in Infinity, 'crew training' is the players skill, not the model's stats.
You still got access to cheap orders in Yu Jing and you have Guilangs and KHD ninjas. Thats quite good support for TAGs. The big advantage of the Multi-HMG is shock ammo and a very strong exp ARO.
I'm aware of the advantages of Multi ammo, but when push comes to shove, all I'm saying is that I find the community (and myself) to pick the O-Yoroi first, making it the main TAG. Even when I intentionally design a two-TAG list, I tend to end up with an O-Yoroi and then a Guijia, never two Guijia. Guilang are good, but so are Crocmen and Locusts. Hexa KHD takes a bit more work than Ninja, but by and large Pan-O and Yu Jing are pretty damned similar on the support side of things (which is to say, mediocre at best). Tipping point I think, where I couldn't have made an argument, would've been if Guilang had a KHD profile, but they don't.
Decent is not the same as competitive, which is what the thread asked. A Guijia is never going to be more competitive than one of Yu Jing's premium HI and a kuang shi + controller bundle. Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 4 YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 2.5 SWC | 87 Points Open in Infinity Army And the Squalo shits on all of these, it's is an M1A2 SEPv3 where the rest are T62 ripoffs at best.
The reason you have 1 of each is rather obvious, you arent going to double down on the same TAG when you can get 2 TAGs that do 2 different things. (Tiks, overdrons and geckos being exceptions) As to the guija. its fine, build a list around it and Yu Jing can do that extremely well Could do with some tweaking, but this is a fair start, Would look into getting more spec fire and the like into the list Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 4 GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) GROUP 2 4 BÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) RAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
The problem with the Yan Huo is that its a slow 4-2. A 6-4 TAG is quite a different beast. Its easy to dismiss TAGs on paper which a lot of players do. The only way to break that perception is to play the Guijia. I'd say the Yan Huo is rather poor as a rambo. The slow speed really hurts it. Its best profile is the Neurocinetics ML, that makes for some nasty AROs with 8 arm in cover. I wouldn't even say the Yan Huo is competitive. Your much better off with a Hsien or Hac Tao.
a guiija with 1 order is pushing a specialist towards bottuns, 6 orders on a yan hao (and I doubt your getting that outside of kaungshi, which you could take for said guija) isnt doing that
But its not hard at all to have a full 10 order list with a Guijia. You could just as easily take some Kuang Shi with your TAG as others have done in some posts above.
ARM above 5 and W/STR above 2 are both horrifically costed and easily bypassed. Also you have the resulting high order count of not taking the Guijia, you don't have to use the same basket of eggs for everything. You are going to love the increased proliferation of Saito Togan if you are sending mediocre manned TAGs along predictable paths up the board after objectives. The OP and reply said competitive.
Oh right, because 10 orders lists aren't competitive. All I can say is to play 10 order lists and practice using them. They are not for everyone but they can win games. We can go back and forth on this forever, but the only thing that will change your mind is to play games with 10 order TAG lists. They are quite capable of winning missions. People fix on the Guija just being a plain standard TAG but unlike basic HI, a standard TAG brings a lot to the table.
I am sure you can have good games with them, but compared to a high order count list it's a legitimate handicap. I've used plenty of 10 order lists. I'd like to be able to say I can play as competitively with 10 as 14, but I can't. I'd like to say 10 order lists give me as much trouble in play to win games as 14+ order lists, but they don't. Isolation, monofilament, adhesive ammo, E/M, getting CC'd by 6 point lunatic with an AP CCW and PH14, and of course, crit hits. The things I intentionally set out to use against ARM6 also melt ARM8. The 5-15% of arm saves where the difference matters barely registers as a concern by comparison.
Ignoring standard ammo in all but names pretty big. You roll that hmg vs arm11 and see how well it does you. Moreso when that arm11 is putting b3 bs14/11 rounds back at you ar dam16 and a -3 mod....
Also it might not work for you.....doesnt mean it doesnt work. Hinestly theres far to much "buff x/y is overpowered" around here these days. I miss the ages of "heres how x and y work recognize the difference" :(
If it's obvious, why are you wrong? O-Yoroi is AVA 1, and I'd love to make a vanilla list with two of them, considering how well JSA can do double-TAG. I do miss ALIVE group, though, that one was really good value for aiding double-TAG lists. As for your list, I don't like it much. I don't quite see the point of the second group and I dislike having a Doctor just to have a Doctor (most of the stuff in the list is either unrecoverable or not worth picking up). I'd much rather have a 10-order list when running TAGs. I've run a list something like the below to great effect; Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 ARMAND (Multispectral Visor L1) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 45) GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () GŬILÁNG MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army It does have a problem with smoke, so better make sure the first shot kills the smoke carrier or that the other sniper can take an angle once smoke is down. I've only had the opportunity to face down a Aleph army with this, but it did wonders suppressing any long range threats enough for the Guijia to take a flank.
i would not run 2 oyori outside of JSA, and i would only do it in JSA for lack of options for a second TAG. In my fairly vast experience running 2 TAGs you typically want 2 TAGs that play differently so that you can leverage the strengths of the TAG that you need at the time you need it, and the guija undoubtedly has advatnages over the Oyori, not the least its ability to mulch NWI and High ARM units far easier than the Oyori can. As to the list, yeah Id tweak it, probably dropping a raiden for a SML bot at the least, as to having a second group, its there in part to let the Bao activate, clear long range threats then for the kaunshi to advance and the Guija to go ham, and to do that without starving the bao or the guija or orders, its highly doubful the bao would need more than 4 or so orders to clear out range AROs that threaten the guija, particularly not wiht the CSCD laying down smoke Swap the raiden for a SML Ninja for a kanren (though that is to taste) and call it good with a warcor
