Yu Jing Fluff - Perception, Reality, Desire

Ummm... perhaps 1) reading the book first 2) not insulting those who have and 3) offer an actual critique of the work rather than juvenile name calling might increase the possibility of a response from nil to none.

 

This discussion has definitely hit a tough point... for the most part, those who have book in hand have already been part of discussions, and had taken a position that Corvus Belli was doing great things/wasn't making errors. That is to be expected, if that's your perspective you're going to pre-order their next book, you want that good content, whereas if you're critical or skeptical you're probably not plunking down cash on something you worry is going to be bad.

Which brings us to where we are now. Perhaps those who have read the book and are defending it are correct, but since this is just the latest part of a long discussion, wherein (as @Benkei lists in a short timeline) there hasn't been much reason for the critics and skeptics to trust the views of the defenders...

There definitely seem to be plot points and elements being described that seem iffy to me, but I will absolutely grant that having not read the text itself it is difficult to be as sure as I'd like when presenting critique or criticism, or when judging the validity of counterpoints. Not much to do there, alas.

 

It's just that the only ones who have read the book and are defending it here happen to be official proof readers and game testers. You all are so involved with the company that automatically lose any sense of objectivity in front of the eyes of the rest of the community. No wonder the only likes your posts are getting guys are the ones given between yourselves.

 

It's probably also worth noting that most of the defences of events that I've read here have actually convinced me more that something is off.

For example we were asked to believe that the ISS missed this low level mastermind who somehow had enough clout to get meetings with high ranking players in other factions who also weren't under any surveillance. Seems pretty implausible as a starting point but you then go on to say that there was enough publicly available press coverage to prime several nations to support the uprising and no one noticed that?

Its preposterous.

Which isn't to say that it can't make sense in world but it would require intervention by Aleph or the EI behind the scenes to engineer it, a massive gamble from YJ to plant some double agents or we just accept it as a corporate deus ex machina.

 

Since it sounds like those who have read the book are not going to provide sanitized information to the masses to alleviate their fears, I'll provide a brief summary.

In the book, most of the Uprising event is chronicled by a Haqqislam teacher, in a 14 page timeline of events. While you would think this would be a neutral outlook, it is very much follows the GW practice of "focus on the new models". This is listed as events that happen on a date, at a location. I'll just include a quantification of events that happen with the Imperial Service, since that's one third of the players involved. I will not say what exactly is happening to prevent spoilers, but I will include the date and location and whether the event is positive or negative for the ISS.

Spoiler

Japanese Archipelago, August 3: Negative
Japanese Archipelago, September 12: Neutral
Mars, August 3: Negative
Mars, August 12: Positive
Dawn, August 3: Negative
Svartelheima,August 3: Negative
Paradiso, August 3: Negative
Paradiso, Fukaitani, August 3-5: Negative
Human Edge, August 3-5: Negative
Human Edge, August 22- September 8: Neutral
Human Edge, October 1: Positive
Human Edge, October 3: Oh wait, that was actually a Negative
Human Edge, October 8: Negative
Human Edge, November 6: Positive
Human Edge, November 11: Thats a Negative now...
KuraiMori, August 3: Negative
KuraiMori, December 1-28: Positive
KuraiMori, December 20: Positive
KuraiMori, December 21: Actually, thats a Negative now.
KuraiMori, December 31: Turn that December 1-28 into a Neutral.

Well... when I first was setting out to put this together, I thought there was less Imperial Service stuff... but apparently I wasn't thinking about the Human Edge stuff.
running totals:
Positive: 5
Neutral: 2
Negative: 9
Positives that get turned into negatives: 4

This is outside of all the things that just don't make sense. Why is the StateEmpire performing these atrocities? (blowing up a damn, taking over life support controls of a station for a week, killing tens of thousands on TV). There is no justification given from the StateEmpire perspective, and in several instances we have the famous "Sun Tze recommends against this; humans do it anyways." The book makes the Imperial Service out as a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.

Edit: Apparently I don't know how to do Spoiler tags...

 

Three strings of questions for those who have read the book; I've tried to break them down into easily addressed chunks, to make them easier to answer.

1.1: After the events of Uprising, does it seem to you like Yu Jing, as an entity in the game world has been signifigantly weakened? Feel very free to leave comment on how or why (not).

In extension:
1.2a: If you think the faction has been weakened is it enough to warrant reconsidering their position as a hyperpower, making the game "PanO vs. lesser powers under the purview of O12" - And if not, how close to that are we?

1.2b: If you do not think Yu Jing has been signifigantly weakened in terms of direct power (production facilities, population etc.), do you think their political position in the human sphere has been signifigantly changed by the events in Uprising (that is, has their influence in terms of "soft power" been damaged)?

2: It has been brought up several times that Yu Jing kept hold on to control of Kuraimori. Are there any details on how the Japanese population who remain on the island are being treated after the treason?

3: Are any negative consequences whatsoever for PanOceania commiting to an act of war without prior saction by the O12 mentioned anywhere in the book at all?

 

@Hjiryon:

1.1: Weakened? Yes. They lost this round of the game, however it’s a matter of a boxer losing a round, not the fight.

1.2a and b: Again, weakened, yes, but not significantly.

2: It’s hell under martial law.

3: No, because PanO had the tacit approval of the other powers and O-12, if not official authorization.

 

Seeing as YuJing could do absolutely nothing against PanO shooting down every fighter, drop ship and transport they launched from their own territory, I think its already PanO vs. Lesser powers.

 

It sounds like Yu jing has no allies and little political power/influence, neither of which make any sense for the number two power of the human sphere. And I agree with what's been said earlier, the strongest voices in support of the book have been people involved with Corvus Belli. Which isn't even a problem alone, but it's a problem when an established faction suffers in game and in fluff just to sell a new model range. We've been Worfed and it's hard to deny it, as much as people may try.

 

There is no criticism of this release possible that you wouldn't call insulting.

 

Well, considering you’ve done nothing save insult the release and everyone involved, yes, any and all of your “criticism” rightfully goes in the dustbin.

 

First, I know of dissapointed people who got the book and is less than thrilled. But they do not enter in the CB forums (and I'll save the adjectives used). Second, the defense is "wait and see", which was used before more than once... and the "see" was an even greater dissapointment.

As I said on the spanish forums, if I buy the book and consider it not worth the money, what are my options? Ah, eating it. So I turn to whatever online data I can find on the subject, and the more I discover, the more I can't escape the conclussion that it will be full of holes that collide with the official material published until now (like the RPG, personally supervised/approved at least on the background parts, by Interruptor).

Those of us who ask for coherent answers for certain questions get told "see and wait", while they supposedly read it already. If I ask a question and get an evasive, I assume the real answer is not precisely beneficial to the one I'm talking to. But the situation is easy: I read the book, and if I like it I buy it, if I don't I won't. To begin with, with Yasashii Fuyu's first post about the books contents, and specially the page distribution, made me cancel my preorder. And nothing I've read until now makes me think I will find Infinity a more rich and nuanced setting by reading Uprising.

 

Yu Jing has lost players, it is worst than getting weak in books. Players who play with JSA are now in NA2, I don't know how many of them are, but for sure it means less points scoring in the next campaign. The only hope YJ have is the attraction of Invencible Army, and the possibility about gain some more players to score for YJ.

 

1.1 weakened yes, significantly weakened no, the biggest issue I see is not the territories lost or the combat casualties, but the fact that the state empires current ruler prove to be both prideful and vengeful, I think they focus too much effort on Japan post uprising when they are an insignificant player in the political chess.

1.2a No, they have lost more pride than actual power but they should reconsider the ISS the same way PanO had to reconsidered their secret services, it is not that it could not happen, many countries in history got hit completely out of the blue by similar circumstances, it does not mean though that they do not need to tighten the security.

1.2b Their political power, no, their actual image yes, though on second thought I am not sure, PanO civilian population (and other wealthy citizens) has a really bad idea of Yu Jing through Candy double, the state empire proved it can fight a rebel army, combined attacks and hold the same level of garrison while sustaining casualties from PanO iron wall and still not flinch, the ceasefire they arranged with PanO to withdraw from the Japanese archipelago while not detailed, cannot be out of PanO kindness of their harts, under the table pressure must have been massive from Yu Jing, again from me the big weakness is they showed they are more prideful than they should ever be and this can be used by many as a manipulative tool.

2 They are treated as either traitors or suspects under martial law and constant surveillance from ISS, hidden extremist cells still active, the indoctrination by Kuge and the paranoia that has overwhelmed ISS (with a healthy dose of honest racism) makes the entire situation volatile at best.

3 No, they operated under O-12 approval, though if I was the PanO government I would be really worried, first and foremost and most crucially they Kuge did not deal with PanO government or PanO secret services, they dealt with PanO corporations and they pushed PanO into war, PanO government is influenced way too much by lobbies and this can be way too risky for the future, on top of that PanO civilian population turned out to be too easily moved from apathetic toward Japanese and their struggles to Sympathetic, this again shows a vulnerability PanO government has that can be manipulated for their detriment in the future.

 

Well, considering all you’ve done is shill for this release and belittle or insult everyone who disagrees, you haven’t got a fucking leg to stand on.
Bluntly, you’re pulling a Kanluwen by ignoring everything that disagrees with your narrative.

 

Bullshit. YJ has lost, according to YOU somewhere between 5 and 15% of their territory and resources. You keep saying that’s insignificant. New York or Texas rebels against the USA and secedes and nobody notices economically? NFW.

O-12 going along with this? Destroys it as a credible organisation. It’s a democratic organisation of member states yet it’s acting as a fucking dictatorship? Bullshit again.

The only way any of the uprising story makes any sense is if it’s the buildup to YJ joining the EI, which is fucking stupid.

 

@psychoticstorm , I'm talking about lossing players. The political game are linked with the narration on the books. I remember in Wotan, in the 3tr round, a japanese comander took the best plan, and how they gain lots of points for Yu Jing. I think the real losses are the JSA players and the score they can get for YJ. Because now their score will count in NA2.

 

In the spanish forum we were talking abut this idea. Any human likes Yu Jing, and the only one who have the idea about "If you join us, you will we part of a great power, conserving your way of life" is the EI, So if CB want to make us the "Bad guys" one way is joining us with Ei. A terrible idea, because this can mean a catrastrophic event for the narration, and a forced end for human sphere.
And I'm agree with you. This is a great losse for YJ, and now how we can recover our territories and resources? Or we must accept we have lost it forever?

 

First of all I did not give any percentages at all the ones I remember been quoted is between 1% and 5%

Secondly for a narrative book I will discuss about narrative, not how many Yu Jing players play in the campaigns, I do not think participation of Yu Jing faction was small not sure how many pure JSA was in it, performance less so.

I think I need to again state that whatever fan-fiction you make in the BoW campaigns it has no impact on actual fluff, for example the embassy, it was clearly stated no alliances would be formed in this campaign, yet posters find it odd the fluff states the embassy fell to Nomads and Haqq, defended only by JSA who actually fought there.

 

At least, those JSA points will not be for YJ anymore, thats is what I'm talking about. Those points are losses, less or more, but are losses.
Well, CB have the hand on the pencil, they can write at will, taking some results or decisions the factions did for the narrative.