1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Saladin in Starmada - how do you play him ?

Discussion in 'O-12' started by LeGweg, Sep 4, 2022.

  1. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    I'm getting into Starmada, having previously played IA/TAK/TJC.

    Starmada looks really nice, with lot of options to play with - experience will tell me if they are good or not.
    I was looking at Saladin profile. The mix between 1.5W + repeater with Strategos L1 and +1 CT looks really interesting, especially in the context of a faction with a lot of forward deployment options and some holomasks.
    He looks like a great profile, but I fear that the resources deployed to protect him overcome the advantages he brings.
    I'm not really into competitive playing, but I'm more used to either ~20ish pts cheap lieutenants (Daoying, Securitates, Interventors, Voronin..etc) or ~50ish pts ones (Qiang Gao, Kriza Borac, Guijia..etc). Playing with something between makes my listbuilding quite weird. Should I protect him or let him go ?

    I'm thinking of him as a source of coordinated orders for Crushers, Casanova or anything in mid-field.

    To achieve this, I plan to take either Cho, a Tian Gou or both to show "duplicates" of him. Then I'd like to protect him with several 12pts profiles (there are a lot of great speedbumpers here ! Varangians, Raveneye, Bluecoats..etc).
    Something looking like that :

    Saladin army base
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    CHO (Chain of Command) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20)
    TIAN GǑU FTO Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)

    0 SWC | 100 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Do you have any experience playing these kind of lists ?
     
  2. Duront

    Duront Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2018
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    61
    Heyo! I also struggle with Saladin but when I have taken him in the past it hasn't been horrible. He never really did much but wasn't ever really threatened and just provided an extra order and command token for the game. That's pretty good I guess? I think Cho is enough to safeguard saladin if you want to get him into the fray more. I think the Tian FTO wants to be in a link so doesn't really work well if they are pretending to be saladin.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  3. miguelbarbo84

    miguelbarbo84 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2018
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    169
    Uh, Strategos and +1CT have their own value but 34 pts for 2 orders always seem too many for me, specially now we can have 2 Raveneyes with their E/M mines, and put them into a security FT if needed. And on the other side of the coin, there are Z and Hector...expensive but brutal and can always be covered by Cho and Parvati.
    Dunnow...
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  4. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,185
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    From an outsider perspective, it feels like Saladin is in a weird place in Starmada. He is great in Haqqislam as he has Strategos L2 and we have a lot of Irregular orders. But in Starmada you only have Strategos 1 and nearly no Irregular troops, so he does not contribute as much.

    In addition, Hector, while nearly twice the price, does a lot things that Saladin does but better. He gives 2 LT orders, has access to plasma, tougher, and most importantly, can link.

    Hopefully, you can make Saladin work for you.
     
    Lady Numiria and LeGweg like this.
  5. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2021
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    696
    Saladin is theorically useful when you don't have a NCO (Zeta, Raptor) and you want to provide an extra order to a combat group for a good unit, such as an HMG Epsilon. Or when you wish to deploy two units instead of one after seeing your opponent army deployment using the Strategos 1. Ideally you want to use Saladin instead of other Lt Options when you wish to do both at the same time for a given list and Hector is not your main (and only) plan.

    I am about to use Saladin extensively for Starmada in the following weeks exactly as that, so I hope I can provide more insight to this thread in about a month.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  6. Lady Numiria

    Lady Numiria Cyberius TaskForce

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2019
    Messages:
    409
    Likes Received:
    964
    Looking forward to your results, as I still find Saladin almost useless in O-12 considering quality Lieutenants is one of our motto, and sadly he's the weakest of them all.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  7. Drakefall

    Drakefall Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2020
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    26
    I've had pretty good experiences with Saladin. There's something about him that wards off assassination attempts. The last time I played him a Bearpode stomped across the table to finally get to him only for him to dodge 3 bursts of chain rifles from the beast (Fat bearpode couldn't climb onto the block Saladin dodged onto to punch him). Que Duroc appearing from behind in my opponent's second combat group and trying the same thing only for Saladin to tough it out like hero and only suffer 1 wound. Next turn he puts down the Bearpode with one burst from his combirifle because sure why not. That was his most ridiculous performance but he has really surprised me with his durability. That NWI really helps more than it has any right too against many assassin types.

    I tried the Alpha once... He just kinda died. I'll pay extra for Saladin any time.

    I genuinely don't bother building around him too much other than to take Cho or a Bluecoat to guard his bum.

    He's no Hector, but who is. No one.

    Now, this the above is an entirely biased experience on my part and on paper Saladin doesn't really stack up against the Alpha and co. but my advice would be to try not to worry too much about that. Just try him out however you like and see if he works for you.

    Anywho, good luck!
     
    Croepoek and LeGweg like this.
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Just keep in mind that Saladin has a Repeater while Cho and Tian Gou doesn't. This makes Saladin a very bad profile to mask as.
     
  9. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    I don't get why it is bad :

    you still need to be in range of the Holomask to know the repeater is fake, right ?
    Before that moment, it just appears that the fake Saladin has a repeater. It's a double-edged situation : opponent can either take a risk by coming in the repeater network or just have lost time by going on the wrong target. It can even be used as bait for a Tian Gôu Jammer.
    In both cases, it's still confusing the opponent.

    That being said, I agree that once you are in the ZoC of a Saladin silhouette with a hacker/hack target, it's easy to know if you are facing a holomask or not.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    As soon as you declare your first skill of the game with any miniature and your opponent goes "alright, let me measure your Repeater areas", the gig is up and your opponent will know who the real Saladin is as that one is the only Saladin with a Repeater Area. If it's an S2 your opponent will even have reasonable cause to do so since you've got access to Tian Gou hackers.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  11. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    @Mahtamori thanks for the explanation.

    I still don't get something :
    The opponent can ask to check a rangeband only in the context of an activation or by designating atwo existing silhouettes on the board. As an example, you cannot measure the distance between two units before shooting, making the choice of your weapon decisive.
    1) If he has no unit inside your repeater zone, you answer "nothing is in range of this repeater"
    2) If a unit is not declaring an hack attack trough your repeater, you answer "this piece of equipment is not functional due to a specific state - probably holomask"
    3) If a unit is declaring a non-hack activation trough your repeater, you cannot hack trough the holomask, giving info trough the abscence of ARO

    An opponent could argue that he may have a Hidden Deployment Hacker unit in the repeater range, but he has to activate it to prove it.

    My point is that you can always answer that you are not in range of fake repeater until an order is unvalidated while trying to work trough it (hacking trough it). Checking a range band isn't the same as saying an equipment is the result of holomask or not. I think that it's the intended behavior:the whole point of holomask is replicating an identity.

    Edit: replaced TO by Hidden Deployment - old habits ^^
     
    chromedog likes this.
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    The Order Expenditure Sequence page does not currently have the Hacking Area FAQ. Here's the Errata from the FAQ (I hope it's on the Hacking Area page, but my browser refuses to load wiki pages atm because it's "corporate" browser version):

    Addition to the Hacking Area. (PAGE 60) HACKING AREA AND AROS
    Enemies entering or acting inside the Hacking Area of a Hacker while remaining outside that Hacker’s LoF and ZoC can be reacted to with Hacking Programs or with Reset

    Players can check the Hacking Area. Measurements must always be made from the Active Trooper and their Repeaters, checking a maximum of 8 inches from any point along their path. If the Active Trooper is within the Hacking Area of the Reactive Trooper, they can declare an ARO (See Order Expenditure Sequence, page 21).

    Italic entry was added in 1.2 and is the one that's messing with units like Saladin as legit Holomask targets.

    Note how before declaring an ARO, the player(s) can check the Zones of Control of all activated troopers (ostensibly to see whether the reactive player has any AROs to declare, but more typically used to pre-measure small teardrop template ranges, shotgun ranges and smoke grenade target points)

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#Order_Expenditure_Sequence

    Sorry for the whole legalese based recommendation, Holomask is currently experiencing pretty heavy rules friction.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  13. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    You are totally right.
    My point is that by checking the Zone of Control, you do not reveal yet if the Zone of Control is from a true repeater or not, you just check the assessment "am I in range ?". If the trooper is in range, then you inform the other player that the equipment is a mock and not a true repeater.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    This is true if you activate a fake Saladin since Zone of Control and Repeater area is the same thing, but if you activate a Santiago romping about on his own is when your opponent gets to meta-game discover which one of your Saladin is real or not because they are allowed to measure the real Saladin's ZoC but not the fake ones.

    The rules are not currently written to allow Holomask to pretend to be Repeaters and the rules are not currently written in a way that allows us to distinguish whether the active trooper is a hacker or not - which is also kind of the fault of Holomask itself.

    It basically all comes down to that the Zone of Control measuring is for the entire Zone of Control and not just for the minimal purpose to checking if there's an ARO or not - and minimalistic ARO checking isn't possible if Hidden Deployment units are allowed non-LOF based AROs without giving up the approximate location of said Hidden Deployment unit...
    Anyway, in the meanwhile we will just have to accept that units with Repeaters are bad targets of Holomask, just like Impetuous units are. Possible targets that can throw opponent off, but bad from the first active turn order.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  15. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    I have a different take on this one

    https://infinitythewiki.com/HoloMask_State

    Holomask marker state defines that "A Trooper in HoloMask State cannot replicate those Deployable Weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by Tokens or Models (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed with the Minelayer Special Skill...) that the imitated Model has."
    This means we could totallly replicate a repeater as it's not a deployable, thus allowing to check range bands but not be used for hacking purposes.
     
  16. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    We are digressing from original Saladin's dicussion, I created this thread in the rules section for those interested about holomask & repeater discussion.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  17. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    Holomask rules are updated !
    It is now possible to replicate Saladin with either Cho or a Tiang Gou (N4 v2, page 60)

    "Similarly, when using an Enemy Trooper’s Repeater, if that Trooper is in HoloMask
    State and does not have a Repeater on their real Unit Profile then any ARO or
    Hacking Program using their fake Repeater will fail its Requirements in the
    Resolution step of the Order, and instead an Idle will be performed. This will
    reveal that the Enemy Trooper does not have a Repeater"
    This change opens great ways of including Saladin in Starmada -another improvement following previous sectoeial profiles updates"
     
    chromedog likes this.
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Yes, they incorporated the 1.3 FAQ from November last year into the main rule document.
     
    LeGweg likes this.
  19. Jericho

    Jericho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2022
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    90
    I'm still struggeling to find a use for Saladin in Starmada.
    Either I go with a cheap LT like Bluecoat, Raveneye or Cho or I take a Rambo-LT like Hector or the Zeta.
    Saladin isn't even linkable.
    Sure, Strategos L1, +1 Command Token and the reaper might come in handy, but for me it's simply not worth the points.
    Every time I try to write a Starmada list it's either the Ravenye or Hector...
     
  20. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    1,671
    Excellent. You can play mind games between Cho and the Tiang Gou.

    As for how to play Saladin, hes the price of a basic HI and while a combi isnt great, dual nanopulsers are pretty nice. Hes role in your DZ is perimeter defense. With Holomask, you can have him defending 2 or 3 different locations, covering your whole DZ in repeaters and nanopulsers. Which one is real is going to be a horrible guessing game for your opponent. Both Cho and Tiang Gou have access to Nanopulsers so your still providing close defense. If Saladin dies, you probably have Cho so you dont go into Loss of LT. Kind of a trap for assassination games / impersonators.

    He is effectively a basic HI and you have the best CoC in the game in Cho so dont be a afraid to use him aggressively. Hes an interesting option for any mission where you really want to go first or need as many units in your team to be tanky. Is he a niche option? Yeah, pretty much. But I have played with basic HI LTs like Orcs before. Sometimes, having more 2 wound models than your opponent is an advantage in its self. Say you have a mission where you score when you have more units in a quadrant. Well, now your LT is a beefy unit that can help hold 1 area rather then hiding prone because they are a fragile LI. I have used stuff like Orc LTs for this role before and Saladin is a hell of an upgrade over one of those.
     
    #20 Death, Jul 20, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2023
    LeGweg and Drakefall like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation