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Ranking YJ characters

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Oct 27, 2022.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking the Para CCW but I think PH doesn't matter there either. Oh well. Then better ARM? I'm really not sure on him.
     
  2. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Still crap. This does nothing to make him worthwhile, as he's still competing with Shang Jisus. In that case, you're either worse and unworthy of mention (and Qiang is a a lot worse), or you're going to be overpowered as hell and break the game. Qiang Gao needs a redesign of his entire role.

    Still does nothing to fix his core problems. He'll still be extremely order hungry in a faction of better order hungry active pieces. All he needs is to be able to pair with those order hungry fireteams that are already going where he wants to go. His biggest problem is that the CG team is by its very nature more inclined to defensive and long ranged roles that give him very few chances to actually do his job.

    It'd be nice, but his main problem is that he's a lot of points for one wound. This helps his survivability a bit, but I don't think it'd move mountains for him.

    Perhaps it'd be thematic, but it'd just jack up her cost in a faction that already has two fantastic CoC options. If anything, the associated price increase would hurt her at the one thing she is actually good at.

    Still ridiculously expensive without the ability to leverage any real offensive power, still an obvious non-marker Lt without any hacking defenses that can be isolated for free. Giving him wildcard or Xian status would help to mitigate much of this, especially if he got spec op. BS13 isn't really doing much to help him other than jacking his cost up even further.

    Good god, yes. Also, Xian status would make him worth taking in ISS.

    This would definitely be nice, but more than anything, he needs 6-2 MOV.

    As Mahtamori noted, completely useless change that only serves to jack up his price. MI Adil is already great, he wants for nothing.

    Not really necessary. If the assumption is that she doesn't gain any special deployment skills, the added marker state jacks up her price while taking away her ability to function with the monk haris. If she does get a deployment skill, that's an even further increase in cost, again denying that monk utility. More importantly, you're pushing her over 40 points in a faction where she'll be competing with the Beasthunter, on top of other incredible skirmishing troopers. Post Raveneye, Jing Qo is in a perfectly fine spot right now. Her functionality with the monk haris is fantastic. People who think that Bixie is somewhat invalidating her or stealing her thunder are completely failing to take into account their considerable differences.
     
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  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I think the best change to Gao would be a change to how LT orders work in fire teams. If I am remembering right, don't you need to shell out for an NCO to use his 2 orders in a link that he is a part of? This would also not increase his price.

    That said, I'd also like to see something to reflect his belt-fed HMG, like burst +1 instead of damage +1. And when they accidentally gave him berserk, he was at least characterful. It would match his new dire foes model.
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Or just give him NCO as well. By using NCO himself no one would know he's the Lt. This is currently how it is with Lt.+NCO profiles. Then there's also more of a reason to take the non-Lt.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It'd lower it by 2 points I think it was :p
    NCO + LT gives a small discount
     
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  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    NCO would be a good sell for me to possibly take over a Shang Ji or more likely, in addition to. NCO, I think, is not as good as tac aware since it comes with baggage of the order belonging to the Lt. and it could be taken by another NCO. Bixie for example.
     
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  7. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I'm still the only one profiting from Quian gao? Although a damage 16 HMG is not as good as an AP HMG, It's pretty deadly for remotes and Light armored units. He looses to the shangji on the broad spectum but the fact that you can take out a daoying out and place another thing is usefull too. He's a good choice Inside invincible if you want to min-max a limited insertion list. the loose of the tinbot can be minimized or corrected with taisheng, chief gong or just a pango FTO. He is veteran and has BTS6, You can endure some carbonite or use him as bait if you have a hacker inside the fireteam.

    His main issue (apart from the cost) is been an obvious LT but you can deal with that too. using leigong or a haidao. Or hiding it with a zencha, a minelayer or a daoying sniper. There are a lot of exclusion zone missions in wich it wont be too much of a loose

    In my opinion he only needs a grenade-launcher to be top tier. Invincible needs that option on top of the table

    the other one that I'm not agree in the over all evaluation is suntze v1. I agree it's not he best. but he's a mini TAG. There's nothing more resilient on our arsenal. He's a perfect choice for T3 storming the central room in missions like armory, or panic room. Dual nanopulsers, shotgun or multi rifle are perfect for the job
    You can tank out biotechvore zones, if needed on the first decisive turns. Reorganize groups each turn or relocate his LT order in the group group you need at the time you need. claim objective zones and hold in supressive fire...
    You can even coordinate him with others to flashpulse the shit out of anyone without total immunity or a hellish BTS. On a coordinated WIP 17 and mimetism is no joke even against people withMimetism -6 if you have the range.

    He's not cheap? He can't be your first option? I agree, but it's fun to play if you actually have a plan and you're not afraid. He's just a Haris away (with a cheap unit dakinis or celestials) of being a rockstar.

    Calling them trash tier feels too heavy. In my opinion adil crane, sorah kwon, or even taowu are on the same page. Limited use for limited missions at a high opportunity cost.
     
    #27 Mc_Clane, Apr 26, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Ok so the problem Gao has, besides the Daoying and Shang Ji just being irrefutably better is that N4's desired list building moved away from order spam to bonus order spam. One of the most desirable things you can do in a list is break the combat group limitations by finding bonus orders to let your combat group go above and beyond.

    Gao does bring one of those bonus orders to the table with the LT+1, he however also competes in an army for the role of the primary BRRRT attack piece in the Shang Ji who also brings a +1 order. If you replace the Shang Ji with Gao you functionally lose an order because now you're running only 2 LT orders instead of 2 LT orders +1 TacAw.

    If Gao was the only source of LT+2 in IA it'd be a slightly different story but with the Daoying being both super cheap and also literally the most desirable, safest LT you could ask for in the form of Camo it's really a no brainer why Gao always gets left on the shelf.

    Now in White Banner he's got less direct competition because there's no other LT+2 and now there's an NCO option that can use his orders however he runs into the issue of the 2 Chain of Command options aren't cheap backline ones. Adil and Lei Gong aren't cheap and they're the sort of CoC that wants to be in the main fireteam where you're getting value out of them, Gong in particular is an integral option for allowing Shang Ji and Jujaks to push through repeater minefields. This places your CoC and your LT in the same fireteam which wants to get aggressive, which is unfortunately a bad combination ultimately.

    So once again you come back to the Shang Ji who is just an easier and better solution.


    I said this at the start of the edition and it's still true to this day: the changes to Oblivion killed Sun 1. Go look at any of the threads currently complaining about hackers and pitchers. Sun Tze has no access to tinbots, no ECM, doesn't have Veteran. The odds of him making it to turn 3 let alone managing to get into a defended objective room aren't high. In many match ups it's extremely likely you paid 60+ points for privilege of a Strategos LT that was pitchered into Oblivion and LoL turn 1, let alone "storming" a room covered in repeaters and/or hackers turn 3.
     
    #28 Triumph, Apr 26, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
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  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think he works adequately enouph for White Banner.
     
  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    You might be lol. At least with those here. DMG16 or 15 vs. a remote is not great enough to make me take him. SJ at least has Shock in addition to AP against light troops. The ECM -3 Hacking is nice but a tinbot -6 would be even better. He at least benefits from it being added when in a team with a Tinbot but I'm not sure it's worth it.

    Unless ST gets some changes he's not going to be used very much. I just find that after his Lt. skills, he's pretty much useless. He's not a specialist or even very good with a gun. My main gripe is that he's so expensive that you don't have much left to actually take advantage of his Lt. skills. It's not like you can have him and a TAG, unlike Saladin, who is cheap, you can easy do that. A Skaivoro and Avatar is expensive but there's many good cheap troops that make up for it. Sun Tze is an expensive guy in an expensive force. Then as mentioned our CoC is not cheap either.
     
  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I'm pretty aware of the meta on invincible cores, I don't need a recap on previous statements.

    This is the situation I'm picturing


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3
    QIANG GĀO (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Heavy Machine Gun, Nanopulser / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
    LÉI GŌNG (Chain of Command) Submachine Gun, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 32)

    1.5 SWC | 120 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
    ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (0 | 26)
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
    (I've inserted the cheapest pure zuyong fireteam option here for the sake of comparing similar pure fireteams. of course tai coud bring CoC instead of Leigong and even change the diference. But we'll fall in the endless trap of polishing an IA fireteam)

    1.5 SWC | 136 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    My point is, what's the opportunity cost of one slot of your list? for a difference of 16 points you can add a tachimote or an EVO (in missions with EVO +1 order) and even the difference in orders.

    There are plenty options for a tinbot inside your fireteam you can make up for it
    I don't like BS: attack shock in missions that require making classifieds. retiring your targets out of the table hinders you capability to score
    BS damage 16 is equal or better to BS damage 15+AP up to ARM 3. which is usually 80% of the the target's list. Anf you have plenty of other choices against armored targets. from feuerbach, pasing throuh multi, to CC.

    55 points is not an avatar. Not everyone has pitchers. tables are not open as warhammer ones. deployment is important and you have the upper hand as a WIP17 Lt. you can deploy hackers beside him covered with tinbot. or deploy repeaters next to suntze for as cheap as 7pt, there's faery dust, reactive fire, lot's of cheap sacrifices on ISS to deal with repeaters, and ultimately resets on 17s (8s in isolated).

    Even his average BS12 is damn fine against non MSV targets. his mimetism is almost as good as BS 15 on a zuyong.

    Of course he is not an option for cardboard plastified lists for the lazy player or an ultracompetitive one, but he has it's uses. He has won some games for me turn 3. calling him garbage is going too far
     
    #31 Mc_Clane, Apr 26, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is use them and if they work for for you, great. I don't say garbage but just "not-good". They are my least likely to be taken for any game. I personally just find both of those guys have too much competition in their own faction or just the abilities don't justify the cost.

    It's not about the Avatar, it's about the Avatar plus the cheap good troops, Shrouded, Dartok, Taiga, Imetrons, Ikadrons, and more that allow for the Avatar to really be useful. Not to mention he's a killer himself.

    BTW on that fist group you are announcing the the world this is my Lt. and only Coc, please kill them first.
     
  13. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    there are 180points left on the list and 2 slots in the fireteam. If you can't use more than half of the list to complicate your rival access to 1 guy, there are little factions at your measure. Everyone that plays with an agresive Lt nows that they cant't be put as a reactive piece lightly.

    Shangji HMG needs almost the same kind of potection. too much weight on your fireteam. 49pt, 2 orders, main active piece and your main defense against hackers. Quian is at least more secure against hackers pitchers jammers and oblivion. So in my in my opinion they should be played by the same set of principles.

    I've entered top 3 in some tournaments in Spain using him. So I now what i'm saying when I say hes not that bad.
     
    #33 Mc_Clane, Apr 26, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I took that to be a harris. Hey great for you. I'm personally taking a break from YJ right now. I'm sick to death of being Isolated, Frozen, on the first turn or Spotlighted/missiled later. over and over again. But with my CA, those three would be Target priority for me.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I realise this is a conversation about Qiang Gao, but... why?

    The Zuyong combi doesn't really add any real capabilities to the fireteam, other than maintaining the +3 Discover bonus. While it is a nice bonus to have, I don't think that outweighs the value of either making the team much cheaper using a Rui Shi or Son-Bae or by giving it extra capabilities using Haidao

    I'd also point out that when you consider what you can bring to the table using the points "saved" on the Daoying, those capabilities should be weighed against what you can tactically do with a link that does not contain key leadership units. Oh, and I'll never quite reconcile why people seem so addicted to the 22 point Daoying - the hacker is so good.

    --

    Sun Tze v1 and Qiang has the same basic issues.
    a. Too expensive; not only subjectively, but their gear and skill doesn't really add up by a handful of points.
    b. Duplicate capabilities; Sun1 manages to lose the competition to himself.
    c. They are quite tame designs. Guaranteed not to shake up any metas.

    Note how none of these are criticisms of the profile so much as basically saying that it's a cost issue. If we look at Sun2 and the price drop that unit got - it's now a serious unit to consider thanks to it without being so cheap that it's auto-include.

    C. is a bigger topic that's not limited to just a few units to a few factions.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Ok firstly you're not going to pure team a core at 300 points in a serious list. I run Invincible pure cores in 400 and they're viable, but you take the Tactical Awareness Zuyongs in that for even more orders not the basic ones. At 300 points though pure core IA is a trash all in go first and win or go second and lose build.

    IA at 300 functions best with mixed teams, that means Zhanshi are your base building block for fireteams not Zuyong.



    Even then, we also need to ignore the part where still you're losing out on not adding the EVO/whatever source of bonus orders to the second option to further break the combat group limitations, it still has the problem that I've pointed out with White Banner, your CoC isn't cheap and you're generally going to need to get value out of it which means it goes places that put it in jeopardy.

    This is doubly so for Gao and Gong because essentially Gong is going to be opening routes for a fireteam that Gao is probably attached to. You functionally put both your LTs in the same spot and that's asking to be punished.

    Like could you try really, really, hard to make this work and accept some draw backs and try to play around them? Sure.

    Or you could just take the Shang Ji and Daoying who are just simply better. Gao is bad because he's a total chore to make work and he's constantly out done by other options.


    Yeah you don't actually have much experience with high end hacking. Firstly, you don't need open tables to fire pitchers all over the place.

    Is this an open table?

    [​IMG]

    In this game a pitcher wound up just outside my DZ near the large green and L shaped grey building to snipe Krit Kokram with a missile.

    Secondly, Yu Jing hackers, ISS especially, aren't going to save Sun Tze they're merely going to be the first casualties

    Thirdly, placing friendly repeaters next to Sun Tze literally does nothing. You can't piggy back through multiple repeaters to hack through them.

    Fourth, good luck finding points to run tinbot hacker fireteams plus Sun Tze

    Fifth, fairy dust doesn't help if you go second and invites your opponent to make you start the game in LoL. It also only lasts as long as your opponent decides they're not murdering your EVO hacker.
     
  17. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Qiang brings no not much for his points. Normaly I collect all that is Yu Jing, but he did not even manged to make me buy the DF box (and I could use Uma too, but unfortunatly her version is in the same vain as he is - so a good couple ;.) His mini looks okay but not so much appealing, that I consider him to buy and watch him on the shelf of my cabinet.

    From the rules side - I am clearly a fan of the main Shang-Ji. The TA order weights more than LT+1 on my main gun platform. The AP gun itself is better - minor targets that managed to save a 15 are lucky anyway. He brings a lot and yes you loose two orders and the tinbot, when he goes down to a crit so always use TA first and put a paramedic in the team. Thats a generall problem with TA. The extra oder is very useful, but you can not use it for everything and ...you loose double if things go worse. But back to Qiang. I see it like Triumph above. In IA you have better options for LT+1 and in WB you will go back to Shang quickly and live with one order for Bixie. The combination of LT+1 and active shooter is too risky in that case. In other factions we have this position better coverd: MAFs Suryat HMG because LoL is no problem for MAF. JSA Domaru Spitfire because of a chap CoC in the backyard. Hector - to stay with chars - is the better overall package.

    But I like the idea of hiding the fact that Qiang is LT by placing a camo marker in your DZ (paradoxingly this would be a Daoying, maybe the sniper - because when you use a Zencha you waste your inifltration) especialy when you play vs someone that know cleary knows, that the camo in your DZ is your LT+1 and starts an attack run against it. But just for this little fun? Meh.

    Qiang is far from useless but Shang always outshine him. He is a Defiance char without a stunnig ruleset. From the four main heroes only Jazz is a star in Infinity.

    My thought on Sun Tze: I do not have him. I do not want him. I never missed him. The minis are both nice but both could use an update too. When ist come, I am sure there will be an rules update also and then we can talk about him.
     
  18. Forthfaran

    Forthfaran Well-Known Member

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    To my eyes that table looks wide open. You have several fire lanes vertically and diagonally. Horizontally it is a bit better in the back of the table. In the center of the table there was a try to block a bit more, but it fails on the diagonals.
    How many orders did your opponent need to move his model with the pitcher in position to shoot at the position you described?
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I disagree on the basis that I was facing a pure core bolt sniper situated in the bottom right on the blue building, and it went the entire game without it getting to take a single shot in ARO because I was able to just maneuver without needing to engage it.


    IIRC it was 3 including the order to fire the pitcher. It was Laxmee moving up to near the large grey building to get her +3 band.
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Yes, that table is wide open space.
     
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