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Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by QueensGambit, Mar 22, 2023.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm quite pleased with myself to have managed 10/114 in the recent Infinity Global League satellite. I thought I'd mark the occasion with a bit of list and discussion.

    IGL Satellite main
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14)
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    DIGGER Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon(+1B). (0 | 14)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]3
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    ZAMIRA Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This is the list I used in five out of six missions. It's an attempt to implement @HeadChime 's thoughts in this thread https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...-for-2022-onwards-lists-and-discussion.41862/ on "threat saturation." It doesn't have any top-tier pieces; instead, the idea is to fit in as many economical mid-tier threats as possible and spread them across the board. If the opponent kills Zuleyka, I still have Zamira and the Fiday. If they kill the Asawira, I still have the Mukhtar and Knauf.

    The biggest downside to this approach is that I don't have the SWC for a guided missile bot. It's definitely a weakness. That being said, I didn't have any games in this tournament where I wished for a GML.

    The game plan is straightforward. Deploy the Nazarovs on opposite sides of the board, and the gunfighters (Asawira and Mukhtar) on opposite sides of the board. If going first, reserve Knauf and the Fiday. Their job is to try to punch a hole in the enemy defense so that one of the Nazarovs can get in on turn one and do as much damage as possible (there is a gap in group 1 so that Saladin can shift over whichever Nazarov turns out to be better placed for an attack run).

    Round 5 (Engineering Deck [ITS8] vs. Morats) was probably the best illustration of the list working as intended. My opponent had first turn, and deployed an unstoppable core link on the right flank. I deployed as planned, with threats on both sides of the table. My opponent's reserve was an expensive haris link with a Suryat HMG, Kaitok Flammenspeare, and Rindak paramedic, deployed on the left flank.

    Turn 1, my opponent could have attacked with one of his links, but he would have been running into a hacking network, and because of mid-tier threat saturation, probably couldn't have done enough damage to justify stranding a link in the midfield. Instead, he (correctly, in my opinion) opted to attack with a Daturazi, but I managed to hold it off with the Nadhir and a bit of luck. Now he was in trouble: his right flank was unassailable and my threats on that flank were useless, but my threats on the left flank couldn't be ignored. He opted to leave the Suryat and Kaitok out on ARO (a reasonable choice since otherwise, Zuleyka could have advanced unopposed), but Knauf deleted them both from outside 32". From there, I was able to win just by playing on the left side of the board and leaving my opponent to try to make headway on the right.

    Having now played this list quite a bit, there are some things I would change. First, I don't think the 9-6 group split was optimal. The idea was to be able to attack with either Nazarov and have a full group of regular orders to fuel her. But I think it would be better to start both of them in group 1 for even more flexibility (if I really need to spend the whole pool on one Nazarov, I can command token the other's order). That also gives me room for another irregular in group 2, so I can change the Digger (which didn't do anything for me all tournament) into a second Ghazi:

    More jammers
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14)
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    ZAMIRA Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I also want to experiment with the Azra'il Feuerbach. He seems to be somewhat in fashion with Haqq players these days, and I want to see what the fuss is about. Knauf is of course very flimsy (and I lost him more easily than I would have liked in several tournament games), and it seems consistent with the threat saturation approach to make each threat as hard to kill as possible. So I'll probably give this variation a try:

    azzzy
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    AÏDA SWANSON FTO (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Viral Mines / Viral Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 20)
    ZAMIRA Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    AZRA'IL Feuerbach(+1B) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 44)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    To get the points for the Azzy, this ditches the Nadhir - risky, perhaps, but I didn't feel the Nadhir did much for me in any of my games. Hopefully the two jammers and the Azzy himself will be enough defense. (Aida is a sort of a random experiment, obviously there are other options to fill that 15th slot.)

    Anyway, I'm really liking this threat saturation paradigm - it's fun to play, especially the bikes, and it seems to be working well.
     
  2. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Protector of the Search for Knowledge

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    Congratulations on your placement in such a competitive event! I am amazed how you build your lists. I can never imagine not sticking a doctor in everyone I build.
     
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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I don't have much to heal! The Asawira has Regen, the Mukhtar has NWI, and the bikes have Dogged. Knauf would be a decent candidate for doctoring after he inevitably eats a DTW.

    At the risk of stretching the theory too far, I might suggest that doctors don't really fit the "threat saturation" model where the whole point is that when the opponent kills something, you just attack with something else.

    That said, I'm toying with replacing Aida with a Ghulam doctor and Nasmat in the Azzy list. The problem is that the Azzy is one of my reserves, and will often want to go on a rooftop, which will make it hard to ensure the doctor has access to the him. Any suggestions on that, as a doctor enthusiast?
     
  4. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Protector of the Search for Knowledge

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    The Ghulam doctor with Nasmat should be fine, with the only issue that the nasmat placement will telegraph where the Azra'il is going. However, it will allow you to have a model to do discover rolls while the Azra'il delays against an approaching camo marker. I have no idea what to do with the last two points, however, as the list is so well optimized.
     
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  5. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Protector of the Search for Knowledge

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    Would you be willing to talk more about how each of your games went? What armies did you face each round. What was your most difficult matchup?
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'll do my best! I didn't keep notes and the tournament ran over three months, so a bit of a skeleton:

    Round 1: Firefight vs. Tohaa (5-point win)

    I had first turn, and my opponent unfortunately forgot about Designated Landing Area and deployed all his models facing forward. (I probably should have reminded him, but I wasn't sure if he'd forgotten vs. made a strategic decision that the front was the bigger threat. Turned out he'd forgotten.) Corsair Bashi walked on and started shotgunning fireteams. Two Makauls immediately passed Dodge rolls, which should have limited the damage, but my opponent made a second error by standing them up in addition to turning them. This allowed Knauf to kill them with a couple of Group 2 orders and then the Bashi kept going. After that it was mostly cleanup.

    Main lesson: Group 2 Knauf is just so great for punishing placement errors.

    Round 2: Custom mission vs. Yu Jing (3-point draw)

    This was a custom version of Highly Classified, and the only round where I used my second list which was built just to have a doctor and engineer. I didn't like the list and don't have anything useful to say about the round. My opponent and I had both scored all our classifieds by round 2 and called it there for a 10-10 draw.

    This did put me in the "submarine stratum," and I won the next 3 rounds without facing anyone I recognized as a top-tier player (and then lost the final round against a top-tier player).

    Round 3: The Armory vs. CA (5-point win)

    My best play in this game was to win the Lt roll, which allowed me to keep deployment and my opponent gave me second turn - such a huge advantage in this mission. Opponent deployed a classic Anathematic/Bit-Kiss list, except without a long-range gun (presumably because Charontids and TAGs don't fit in the objective room). Instead he had a Speculo. It's been so long since I saw a Speculo that I forgot CA even had them, and didn't adequately protect Saladin (should have just kept him as a reserve). I got lucky when the Speculo passed its infiltration roll, but Saladin passed his armor save.

    After that, my opponent didn't have a good attack vector. He had not kept Bit and Kiss and his reserve (IMO a mistake for that list), and I'd basically deployed in a castle diagonally opposite them, so he didn't have the orders to do a repeater attack. If first player doesn't do enough damage on T1 in The Armory, they lose; I was able to just keep counter-attacking and using cheap units (e.g. dismounted Nazarovs) to score the room each round. On T2 my opponent Isolated the Asawira and GMLed the Mukhar, but in The Armory second player can lose all their guns and still win.

    Knauf was an MVP again: I kept him in reserve and deployed him on ARO duty when I saw my opponent had no long-range guns, and he held the Anathematic at bay for the whole game.

    Main lessons: long-range guns are really important; going second against impersonators, keep Saladin in reserve!!

    Round 4: Frostbyte vs. HB (5-point win)

    I had first turn, on a weird map with a giant canyon in the middle, where it was really hard to attack DZs but really easy to move around unopposed in the midfield. I abandoned my usual plan because I didn't want to attack a bunch of Jammers. Instead, Knauf removed an overwatching Warcor, then the Rafiq spent a whole order pool pushing two buttons, Sensoring a Sunduqbut and its decoy, Isolating the Sunduqbut through its repeater, and going into suppression. Opponent made the right play by counterattacking with McMurrough, but spent his whole turn trying to get him past AROs from Knauf, the Rafiq, and the Mukhtar in suppression. He did eventually kill both the Mukhtar and Knauf, but it took the whole turn.

    I can't remember the details of T2 and T3, but I think I attacked with Zamira on one and Zuleyka on the other, killing the Sunduqbut and a bunch of order generators including both Ghulam Lt options. My opponent was in LoL on either T2 or T3. Nonetheless, he managed to tie on controlling the zone (with each had the exact same two units in there - a Fanous and an Asawira Spitfire!), but I won on consoles and points killed.

    Also of note: opponent had two Fidays and tried to over-infiltrate both of them but failed one of the rolls. Having anticipated Fidays (maybe I learned something from round 3!), I'd paid a command token to reserve the Liberto and boxed in the Fiday, which couldn't do anything all game.

    Main lessons: Group 2 Knauf is just so useful! He removes little things like Warcors and then Group 1 has the whole pool to do whatever it wants. Also, over-infiltrating Fidays is a bad idea, especially if you're going second.

    Round 5: Engineering Deck vs. Morats (5-point win)

    Discussed up-thread.

    Round 6: Supplies vs. Kosmoflot (0-point loss)

    This was a great game. Opponent had a really unorthodox Kosmo list with no bears or Volkolak. He went first and his turn started out as a flop - Uxia grabbed a box and ran it back to his DZ, but it took most of an order pool to get past my Liberto to do it. Durok came on and killed the Mukhtar but died in return, which I consider a good trade for me (although a necessary one in this case as the Mukhtar was well-placed to have rampaged on my turn).

    With nothing better to do with his last few orders, my opponent walked on Margot and started spec-firing grenades... and promptly crit on a 5 and killed Knauf and the Nadhir in one shot. Ooof.

    On my turn, the Asawira and Rafiq grabbed both remaining boxes, retreated, and castled. Zamira killed Margot.

    The rest of the game was just a test of whether the UKR/Wallace/Varangian fireteam could break through my defenses and take enough boxes to win. It was a close, bloody, and exciting fight. In the end, the Varangian barely managed to get to Saladin on T2 (I should have sacrificed more troops to shoot at it on its way in, instead of Dodging with several of them). Being in LoL on T2, I couldn't do enough damage to the haris, and while the UKR and Varangian both died, so did my whole army and in the final couple of orders, Wallace finished the job and took a supply box.

    Main lesson: Knauf is so flimsy! This is one of the games that made me want to replace him with an Azrail. Azrail cares a lot less about random grenade crits...
     
  7. Doa

    Doa Well-Known Member

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    Have you think about listing an hakim? a parachutist doctor to heal troopers who are advanced...
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I wouldn't, no. My troops that advance all have Dogged, NWI, or Regen. If I brought a doctor, it would be to heal the troops that stay near my DZ (primarily Knauf/Azra'il).
     
  9. khepri

    khepri Well-Known Member

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    Really enjoyed the write up! Thanks for sharing, and congratulations on the placement.
     
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  10. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    I really like the SMG Hakim w/o the Nasmat. A BS12 Regeneration Regular Parachuting Specialist for 24pts. I use him as a surprise Attack piece from an unexpected angle and as a button pusher - never had to use him as a doctor yet :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
     
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  11. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Protector of the Search for Knowledge

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    I do not know if this is the best place to ask, but do we know if the IGL are planning to discuss the army lists in the Top 10? I am really am interested in Micjevans Vanillia PanO and Frartel's USAF lists.
     
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  12. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing :)
     
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