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Post faq 1.3: Can hackers declare any ARO when they get an ARO from their hacking area?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Tanan, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what @Qwerinaga said. At the very beginning of this thread I thought that the ruling was that you could declare any ARO when a hacker got an ARO through their hacking area when they enemy was out of LoF and out of ZoC, and only later in resolution would those ARO declared checked to be valid or not. Which is the sane thing the game should do, to avoid all the ARO bait situations and Sixth Sense nullifying situations we have talked about in this thread. But regrettably, as it is by now with @ijw answer, they can not declare any ARO in such situation. Only Hacking Program or Reset. And this, joined with the fact that this new rule has been included in the FAQ:

    Implies that any time you're a hacker, and there is an enemy repeater nearby, you're open to be ARO baited in the situations described before by any enemy trooper. And your Sixth Sense automatic skill to be nullified.
     
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  2. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    It was me, but I was wrong. As I said, not a big supporter of that wording but I was wrong nonetheless
     
  3. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    Yes you did, and I thought like you did @tox . In fact the one post I have with "Deleting my answer as there was a previous answer" was a lenghty exposition of how I felt that @Tanan was stretching too far the meaning of the rule and the intention was another from the developers and how the game was now free of ARO baiting situations at last... until @ijw post with the rule aclaration changed the whole thing :astonished:
     
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  4. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @Rabble I knew what I was doing, because ofc I did. AROs have been a unclear mess since start of N4. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced.
     
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  5. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    You mean entire fireteam would suffer this hacker's restriction? Can't they use separate AROs leaving hacker away from fireteam?
    Just trying to figure out for myself how it works.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You can pick off the hackers who will not have a meaningful ARO, or their Hacking ARO will enable you to pick off other members that would drop out when they declare something other than the Fireteam ARO skill.
     
  7. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    Not the entire fireteam, just all the hackers of them. But mind that you're peeling the fireteam apart one by one and removing their mods as you're killing the hackers.

    Just think for example a very classic Starmada Security Fireteam with 2 Kappa Hackers on it and 3 non hacker members. You throw a pitcher in the middle of the fireteam, even better if next to the Team Leader as you become assure the whole fireteam is going to be under the ZoC of the repeater. Then your non-hacker parachutist/combat jump trooper moves behind the team, or your non-hacker MSV1/2 trooper moves into smoke. In this exact moment your trooper has triggered a Hacking ARO because of new rules, but they are not allowed by @ijw clarification to declare nothing else than Hacking Program or Reset... therefore they're forfeiting their ARO in reality by declaring IDLE. The other 3 members of the fireteam, as they are out of LoF of your trooper as you're either in the blind spot of the fireteam in the case of the parachutist/combat jump trooper, or inside smoke of the MSV1/2 trooper, does not have any ARO right by this moment, so they can not declare anything.

    Now your trooper declare its second order, BS Attack against the two Kappa Hackers. The Kappa Hackers have forfeit their ARO, so they're unable to use their Sixth Sense Fireteam Mod to neither shoot you back in 360º LOF in the case of the parachutist/combat jump trooper, neither shoot you back into the smoke without the -6 MOD to BS attack, neither being able to Dodge thanks to Sixth Sense. The other 3 members of the fireteam, as they have not been attacked, and are out of LoF and ZoC, are unable to ARO you back. You kill/uncouncious the two Kappa hackers, and now the Fireteam Core has lost their 5 member and 4 member bonuses becoming only a 3 member, so no more sixth sense... or even worse, is broken in the case one of the two Kappa Hackers were the Team Leader.

    This is just an example, but the principle stand with any amount of hackers in the Fire Team, or with Hackers that innately have sixth sense such as the War Driver. A enemy repeater effectively makes their sixth sense ability to become null.

    All of this can be solved just by allowing a trooper to declare any ARO when they have a Hacking ARO available but they're out of LoF and ZoC of the triggering active trooper instead of just forcing them to declare either Hacking Program or Reset. If they just behave like any other normal ARO of the whole game there is no problem: Declare whatever ARO you want, but beware that if you do not fulfill the requirements the declared ARO is going to become IDLE in Step 5. In my previous examples, the two kappa hackers could declare Dodge or BS Shoot against the Active Trooper thanks to the Hacking Area affecting all the enemy troopers of the game as they're inside an enemy repeater ZoC and therefore having a ARO. If the active trooper does not BS shoot them in the second order declaration their ARO would become IDLE. But if the active trooper shoot them in the second order, the Kappa Hackers ARO would be legal thanks to Sixth Sense.
     
    #67 Rabble, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
    RolandTHTG, Tanan and Jumara like this.
  8. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    So it's impossible fir a hacker to use Spotlight?
     
  9. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    If the enemy trooper is out of LoF and ZoC, and it is not a hacker, and it is not in ZoC of any friendly repeater, but your hacker it is in the ZoC of an enemy repeater, no he can not.

    Relevant rule from the faq qouted below:

     
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  10. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Right, you can Spotlight ARO using your own ZoC or that of a friendly repeater. Only spotlighting thru an enemy repeater is now forbidden (unless the enemy is a hacker, then you can Spotlight or use any other better program).
     
  11. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    [redacted] :D
     
    #71 Papa Bey, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  12. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    Could be have any word of update if it is intentional from the CB / Developtment Team that the rules interaction described here work as intended and therefore an enemy repeater generate an ARO Bait opportunity to a hacker coming from any enemy trooper, and nullify Sixth Sense ability?
     
  13. Jericho

    Jericho Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, my question is not exactly on the topic, but I don't want to start a new one just for one simple (?) question.
    If an enemy hacker is in the area of my repeater and one of my hackers activates (move or idle) can the enemy hacker declare a comm-attack as ARO against my hacker? Will this ARO suffer the -3 penalty for using my repeater?
     
  14. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    He can declare ARO, but for now until it is said otherwise only this two:

    And taking in account the last FAQ rule of:

    So if the Comm-attack is a Hacking Program: Yes, the enemy hacker will be able to use it against your hacker. He will suffer the -3 penalty to target number / strength as he is using an enemy repeater to do so.
     
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  15. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    Not want to dig up the discussion again but after a couple games (and list building sessions) I start to ....kinda "like" how it works.
    Over the time of the last months the discussions in this forum did often cook down to the point where hackers have too much influence/are too powerful/are the set up for one of the most disliked tactics there is, whilest hiding behind a core with tinbot, sixth sense and high BTS. They have access to nearly every spot on the board due to infiltrating repeaters and pitcher and suffer no drawback.

    That ends with the new ruling. Having a hacker in your Fireteam with heavy weapons is not a auto-include, due to the possibility to either force the whole team to pick a bad ARO or disassemble the link and also lose the bonuses. So a stright up nerf for linked hackers.

    I am still not sure if it is (warning: I´m using a bad word) intended to work this way, but at the moment we are "stuck" with it and it does feel a little .... clunky on first glance, but on the other hand: We are talking about people who have to observe basicly 2 different worlds: the real one and their hacking-magic-realm. Beeing distracted by the one they are trained to seems not that outlandish at second glance. I Just want to recall the N3 Puppetmaster, unable to do sh*t whilest controling his little bots, and no one did batt an eye.
     
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  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    I’m just glad our local meta and those we regularly travel to/interact with didn’t get caught up in an intentional and atextual misreading of both the FAQ and IJW’s comment, so not having any of these issues.
     
  17. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    If you read at the very begining of this thread you will see that myself and others thought these issues were out of the game at last, and clearly see the intention of the developtment team, until @ijw clearly expressed the following:

    Which I think there is no way to have an 'intentional and atextual misreading' of such comments. And in fact what most of the thread have been about expressing how this is unfortunate if it is as such, and how easy would it be to fix by the following:

    Can hackers declare any ARO when they get an ARO from their hacking area or just hacking programs/reset?
    Yes, they can. But beware to check requirements in Step 5 of the Order Sequence.
     
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  18. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    So am I right in thinking that against a hack-heavy list, a solid option is to bring something like a 13pt barid FO with a pitcher, and no hackers? Use the pitcher to 'paralyse' enemy hackers, with no downside in terms of being hacked back thru your repeaters?

    Haqq look really well placed to abuse this ruling. Cheap impetuous smoke throwers, 13pt non-hackable pitcher cheerleaders, and plenty of great msv hunter units. New HB in particular would need to do very little to bring this to bear.
     
  19. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    Yep, that seems to be the case.:thinking_face:
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Sounds dumb. Just gonna play it the other way.
     
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