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Guts Movement and Prone with Imetrons, Netrods (0-0 MOV)

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Lawson, Feb 16, 2022.

  1. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    It's my understanding that units with 0-0 speed (also shown as -- in the mobile version of army builder) will not move as a result of Guts due to the General Movement Rules (since the maximum movement distance is always limited by the users MOV value).

    There is a question, though, as whether or not such 0-0 units, the Imetrons and Netrods in particular, go prone as a result of Guts. The general rules of movement state: MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move, but there is no minimum. Troopers do not have to exhaust their movement when they declare Move.

    The fact that there is no minimum would seem to indicate that a 0-0 unit does get a Guts move, albeit a move of 0, and since it has made this move, it can go prone.

    This seems potentially wrong, except that I can't really find anything RAW that would prevent it. The only notable thing that might as far as I can tell is the way that the mobile version of Army builder displays 0-0 Movement...

    Here's how it looks in the website army builder:
    Screen Shot 2022-02-16 at 10.28.10 AM.png

    But here it is in the mobile:
    IMG_6294.jpg

    To me, an actual blank -- MOV implies that the unit literally cannot perform any skill that utilizes MOV, whereas 0-0 leaves some room for interpretation.

    I presume the general consensus is no going prone but I have heard people say they do it.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The rules are in contention with expectations here. There is nothing stopping Guts from being executed exactly like for any other LI, but that's not what I think most people expect or want.

    P.s. this is being tracked and is basically the oldest item on my list :D
    Hope we get this sorted, it feels weird when an antenna is crawling around shouting warnings to people.
     
    #2 Mahtamori, Feb 16, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2022
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  3. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    I actually quite like the image conjured up where the antenna has a flashing red light on it that starts wailing like a siren when an enemy is detected nearby. Applying normal unit rules to this unit is pretty silly though.
     
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  4. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    I mean technically I could also imagine a Netrod folding up or an Imetron sort-of retracting into its pod thingy to 'prone' - if Traktor Muls can go prone somehow, it's actually nominally more believable than that, though you likely wouldn't get very good "reception" at this point if these order generating units are meant to be glorified radar antennae. As with many rules it can be hard to know what the design intent is.
     
    #4 Lawson, Feb 16, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2022
  5. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Isn’t there a forum answer saying that netrods and immertrons (and mines and other equipment) don’t prevent recamouflage because they’re not troopers?

    WIP 0 should be the indicator that they’re not taking guts checks. :)
     
  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Is MOV 0 = no guts movement allowed a real thing? I hadn't heard of that one before and would like to see netrods not dodging around the place lol
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    N3 rules, I'm afraid. They're light infantry now, not equipment.
     
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  8. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe there is anything stating that a movement of 0 indicates that moving 2" from guts is not allowed. So, while they are naturally immobile, they can move from guts, they can fall prone (either through an order being spent on them or as part of that guts action), they do prevent going back into various states and they do stop ZoC cautious movement without stealth. They are also allowed to declare discover as aro (though the target needs to be within 8" and not have mimitism to have a chance of passing). as well as alert for global change facings
     
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  9. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    My reading is that the general rules of movement prevent a unit from moving more than its listed movement (as I allude to in my initial post). Since Guts involves a form of movement that states it follows the general rules of movement, even though a unit can move up to the 2" with guts, it is limited by its MOV of 0 to a maximum of 0". Whether it can go prone as a result of a 0" move is where I think it gets fuzzy, but a 0" move is still a move as far as I can tell per the rules so I don't see anything preventing going prone, either via a normal move or as a result of guts. Everything else you mention, including the odd ability to discover on a lucky roll if you're getting a bonus due to range, I do agree with you on.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    General Movement Rules states that you may not move over your MOV value which is not the same as an attribute. While the definition of the MOV attribute supports this interpretation, do keep in mind that interpreting the attribute as a limiter would have unintuitive consequences for units executing double movement skills
     
  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Here, @ijw seems to reject the interpretation that a MOV value is a cap on all types of movement, as opposed to a cap on the Move skill specifically: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/dodge-and-second-mov-value.38633/#post-381074

    If MOV was a cap on all movement, arguably a 6-2 unit with Dodge+2" wouldn't be able to Move 6" and then Dodge 4", because the MOV value of 2 would cap its Dodge distance.

    By the same logic, Netrods would actually be able to Dodge 2" - what's preventing them may only be that they have PHYS 0 so are incapable of succeeding at a Dodge roll.

    Also I think there was a thread that considered the distinction that @Mahtamori posits between MOV value and MOV attribute - it might answer the question more definitively, but I haven't found it.
     
  12. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Whether or not my interpretation is correct or wrong, I'd clarify that I don't consider the value of the two MOV numbers added together (e.g. 4+4 = 8) to be like a countdown timer for all movement during an order based on my reading of the General Movement Rules (GMR)... but rather that your MOV value is a cap to the maximum movement on any given move skill, reaction, or ARO that follow the GMR - for all intents and purposes, a 6-2 trooper has a MOV of 6, with the only exceptions being performing a second "Move" movement skill in the same order (which utilizes the second value) or doing a Super Jump (the only circumstances in which the game adds the first and second MOV numbers together). You don't move 6" with a 6-2 trooper and then have 2" left in the tank per se... it's just that declaring a second move short skill utilizes the second MOV value rather than the first. We as players colloquially consider the total additive movement of X+X as the maximum a figure can move for the sake of simplicity when trying to determine how far we can get in a Move + Move, but that's not really how the game utilizes those numbers in practice (except the aforementioned Super Jump). So I see no contradiction with moving then declaring a dodge on a 6-2 that, due to a mod, is 4"... because Dodge is not a second declaration of the Short Movement Skill "Move" and therefore doesn't utilize (nor is it restricted by) the second MOV value.

    Again, I'm happy to be ruled as incorrect on this by the powers that be. I will read the linked thread and see what IJW says - but I don't personally think my interpretation would create any unintuitive consequences. There are some assumptions I'm making here, of course, about what the second bullet point of the GMR is actually saying... particularly when it comes to assuming the phrase "MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move" is not actually telling us to add them together, but rather suggesting that depending on the circumstances you may be referring to one value or the other.

    Edit: Okay I've read the thread that you linked to @QueensGambit and I actually believe IJW's clarifications support my interpretation... or at least that they don't contradict it. I'll keep an eye on this though. Painting up Onyx right now and I'd love to get some concrete clarification on what I can and can't do with my Imetrons.
     
    #12 Lawson, Feb 19, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2022
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Hmm. Yeah, I think you're right. Later in the same thread, @ijw says "You use the second MOV value if 'the user declares Move again in the same Order'. So the rule defining the MOV Attribute as "The MOV Attribute usually has two values: the first time the Trooper moves in an Order, and the second" isn't correct. It should say "The MOV Attribute usually has two values: the first time the Trooper Moves in an Order, and the second" to reflect that the second value is only used when the trooper uses the Move skill twice, not any time it moves (from any skill) twice.

    Ok so forget my argument above, it doesn't work :-)

    But, later in that same thread turns out to be where the discussion of MOV Attribute vs. MOV Value happens. If we accept the distinction set out in that thread, then the MOV Value of the Dodge skill is 2", and is unrelated to the MOV Attribute. Likewise, the MOV Value of a failed Guts roll is 2" and is unrelated to the MOV Attribute. So, the netrod would be able to move with Guts.
     
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  14. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Interesting - and certainly rather favorable to people using such units. Ultimately I'd imagine that (as we've discussed) this is an accidental side effect of turning Netrods and Imetrons into LI when they used to be equipment(?). I'd be in favor of a ruling that said something along the lines of "units with WIP 0 are considered to be 'non-sentient' and cannot declare orders or AROs of any kind, do not add bonuses to CC Attacks, do not cause enemies in silhouette contact to become Engaged, do not make Guts checks" etc.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just making them permanently IMM-A and IMM-B would stop them from being odd
     
  16. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    that or just give them religious troops and call it a day.
     
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  17. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    IMM-A alone would be perfectly sufficient since they'll automatically fail their Dodges anyway.
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Or, rather than inventing new rules that gives to IMM-states... Do as IJW suggested to CB and give them Religious, because that literally solves everything.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If we're fine with letting them have claxons, sure.
    (This isn't rhetorical sarcasm or anything, letting them have claxons works just fine)
     
  20. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Someone convert cyber-crucifix antennas.
     
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