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Changes I would personally make to N4

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Jul 19, 2021.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Wishlisting changes?
    Tip of the iceberg on top of my head:
    1. Change Crits to +6 Damage on the first Save (i.e. EXP only benefits for 1 roll)

    2. Guided becomes a Profile thing and not a Weapon upgrade.
      If you have Guided on the Profile you have an extra weapon with AP+DA DAM14 Circular Impact Template that can BS Attack without LOF on Targeted State enemies, basically calling in an airstrike, makes way more sense than guided ammo does right now (Guided Pistols lol).
      A successful Guided Attack also consumes Targeted State.

    3. Fix to MI pricing.
      All MI's baseline cost is too high relative to both HI and elite LI for no apparent reason, seems like a "spreadsheet formula error".
      Someone needs to double check why.

    4. Strategic Use of Command Tokens.
      First use is free. Up to one additional option can be purchased for a Command Token.
      Supressive Fire option expanded to up to 4 Troopers (same as a Coordinated Order would allow).

    5. Hacking:
      Switch DAM values on Oblivion and Cabonite.
      KHDs ignore Firewalls on ARO.
    It doesn't take much to make the game significantly less skewed towards a few specific outliers.
     
    #41 Teslarod, Jul 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think number 3 is entirely accurate.

    As for number 3, it's a lot more complicated than it seems. I'll avoid making this lengthy, but suffice to say that some MI (the older ones) seem to still have the discount from being 4-2. The costs otherwise tend to be in line with LI. E.g. Ye Mao vs Karhu is perfectly in line with each other (Karhu are just better optimised)
    Costs shouldn't be in line with HI since HI has that whole Hackable thing going on.

    In either case, the problem isn't with the troop type so much as that there's a problem with most single-wound units above 20 points (that don't have special skills to offset the risk). A bunch of things can kill them from stray chance where as units with specific abilities such as camouflage or NWI do not suffer this risk to the same extent or with certain abilities and optimised profiles gain enough performance to offset the risk. Sometimes even when they're not in a Fireteam.

    I think the poster child for this problem can easily be Kamau. The sniper profile is well beyond the price increase compared to the other profiles better.

    Obviously, I don't agree with number 5, as I've outlined a bunch of times. I hate how static and ARO-centric hacking was in N3
     
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  3. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    This is a very simple change that does a lot to reign in exterminatus. Huge thumbs up.

    Whats a successful attack though? Honestly I'd go further and just say "an attack". Do we have any examples that are consumed on success rather than on action?

    I'd go further. A simple 'flame' attack (I guess they'd have to bring that back) touching a model could be sufficient to burn it, and/or the burnt state could be a full cancellation of camo and mimetism. Both is probably too much.

    Camo has been an issue for the game for a long time imo. Punches down extremely well due to mimetism. Survives well against high tier stuff well due to mimetism and the coin flip that is discover (plus infiltrated positions) making elite units barely better than regular ones at rooting them out. Would love a better soft counter than sensor as it genuinely still feels like the 'always good' choice it has always been alongside the other always good choice of model spam.
     
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  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Technically Camo and Mimetism are separate skills now, although in practice that's only true on two models with the Long Ya and Helots sporting Camo with no Mimetism


    This isn't really viable because you have to take into account BTS9 units, with a specific mind to the Avatar, can get Firewall bonuses. Makes the high BTS TAGs (and HI) find hacking AROs very anemic when you take the damage off the one AP program which is supposed to be the counter to high defensive stats.

    Would be less of an issue if we had a wider variety of hacking programs rather than CB's N4 design which is "Oblivion the fuck out of everything that isn't Veteran"
     
    #44 Triumph, Jul 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  5. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    ... and Libertos, Daylamis, Metros, Volunteers, Rokots. Although of all these only the Long Ya is able to use the camo skill more than once.
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Huh that's a few more than I thought existed.
     
  7. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    My contribution to this lollist:

    _AP round down (plz)

    we need the camo guess game back:
    _bring back normal camo marker (mim-3) for mim zero unit (helot daylami etc.. bring up their pts or not I don't care)
    _mines can be deployed prone

    shock should be remade entirely:
    _remove immun shock on all multiwound models (2W,3W) and NWI
    except very few profiles and IA sectorial
    _remove shock from SMG/HRMC
    _remove the BS atk shock skill
    _remove shock from mines/dropbear/koala/chestmines except on SWC profiles

    _combi/MULTI should have +6 in 0-8 RB to compensate the lack of shotgun remove the shotgun ont he few combi+shotgun profile

    _MULTI rifle should have +1 dmg

    _remove the DTW on light shotgun

    _bring back the delay in ZoC for SS

    Vaul just announced a test league with crit +8 dmg,
    I think those are bad solutions for the crit mechanic because it create in the same situation cases when you can auto wound (HMG VS impetuous for exemple) or not (HMG VS TAG)
    a situation when you do something without a roll or not depending on the profil of the target isn't at infinity's core logic
    it also ask you to do more math during the game

    I would propose to give crit shock + AP + remove the +3 ARM from cover
    this way low dmg weapons crit can damage even a jotum
    other weapon that are already powerfull (ML HRMC MULTI HMG) are not help much but they don't need help from the crit: wining the ftf is enough

    on a final note I think giving to the active player one reroll for one dice at the cost of one command token could help reducing the randomness
    if implemented, reroll for doctor and engineer on cube/rem pres should have a free reroll OR doesn't inflict a wound if failed
     
    #47 Sangarn, Jul 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    On strategic use, bring back the option to use EVO programs with it.
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    What kind of monster uses MODs that aren't multiples of 3s?
    +8? What is this sorcery?
    Like seriously, connect the dots about THE Infinity core mechanic *Tohaa conspiracy theory music playing in the background*
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Oh oh oh! I know! I know the answer to this question!

    It's Corvus Belli!

    ECM: Guided (-8)
     
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  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    All the MULTI should be changed from AP/Shock or DA mode to ARM or BTS mode. End of story.
    And SMG are still overperforming for their cost. They are soft MULTI for a mere chain rifle cost.

    Edit: BTW, Guided is already generally removed by a successful attack. It's called DEAD state.
     
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  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Thought of a couple more.

    Superjump Troopers should be able to fall up to their first move value (without damage).

    Climbing should only count the vertical movement (get a free base width at the top). Simpler to measure.
     
  13. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    since fire ammo don't exist anymore that why i suggested creating a "fragile" skill/ trait (that mimics the em/burnt n3 gear shutdown effects) among my other pointless ideas XD
     
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  14. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    I second both.
     
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  15. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Those are pretty good and simple.
     
  16. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Thirding.

    Super-Jump is functionally useless at the moment and trying to measure distances for Climbing+ (or just Climb) is a headache.

    Just measure the height of the obstacle and be done with it.
     
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  17. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    Yep, that would be what I consider streamlined.
    Any regular Climb uses up a whole order anyways and no base diameter is close to a trooper's second movement value (I think the only exception is the Anaconda due to its MOV 6"-2").
     
    #57 Tristan228, Jul 26, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I like N4 quite a lot, with only a few wrinkles (other than army design and point costs, STOP giving crazy discounts to frenzy troops)

    But the wrinkles are;

    Crits - I don't think two rolls does it. The variance on crit effects is through the roof now. Sometimes several crits in a row do absolutely nothing, sometimes 1 crit kills your 70point HI in ARO.
    Change crits to a +X damage MOD to the first roll.

    Guided and targeted. Split targeted into targeted A and targeted B. A being from Forward observers giving you +6 on guided and speculative attacks, +3 for normal attacks and -3 to reset. While Targeted B from hackers could be flat for guided and speculative attacks and +3 for normal attacks and flat WIP to reset.

    Fix superjump - let them fall or something so they can vault taller obstacles.
    Fix climbing - just measure vertical movement. Cmon.

    Introduce more granularity to weapon damage, reduce cover bonus and increase ARM of MI, HI and (maybe) TAGs.
    Maybe AP can reduce cover bonus.

    Keep speculative declaration and remove premeasuring ZoC. Or the reverse.

    Remove template mode off light shotguns or reduce the cost of CC skills even more.

    Be more consistent with weapon ammo and traits. Have ammo types be Normal, Exotic, non-lethal, technical etc. Then use traits to apply different effects, such as AP, DA, state = isolated, state = dead, ARM = 0.
    Total IMM could then ignore all except exotic. Which might be viral and mono.
    Viral would be exotic ammo; traits - DA, shock.

    Shock should just cancel dogged/NWI - go unconscious instead. This would marginally help NWI not shock immune models who could atleast still get doctored. As well as MI who could get shock immune across the board.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How absolutely bananas would it be if CB adopted the old military adage "concealment does not equal cover"?
    The gist of it is that military ammunitions will penetrate most construction materials it is fired on, meaning getting ARM from being in contact with a car or an ad cube isn't really going to happen.
    Simply put: what if Cover no longer granted ARM?

    Then shift units upwards in ARM to account for this. Light, Skirmishers, and Warbands get nothing <insert meme here>, Medium gets a point, Heavy and TAGs get two.
    "But won't that negatively affect melee units?" Yes - see what Alphz wrote about crits above.*

    * And Ninjas, Alphz! Ninjas and Pheasants with their measly PH can't hurt anything!
    I'm thinking +6 DAM is probably a good and comfy value for a crit? Makes a Fusilier have a tiny sliver of a chance versus everything but the heaviest weapons.
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Probably a good middle ground between the current situation and N3 crits.

    EDIT: Actually, anecdotal point to this. This is how my last game against Bakunin went:

    Bakunin first turn, player only made one attack this turn and it was against a TR bot which promptly crit his Taskmaster haris and killed the Taskmaster.

    My first turn. Haidao MSR died to a crit. Haidao KHD died to a crit. Tai Sheng died to a TR bot critting her off the table too.

    First turn summed up in gif form:

    [​IMG]


    The Haidao KHD went down to a free combi shot I gave a Zero, reasoning that I didn't really care if he did a wound it was going to score 2 classifieds for me as it gave it 1 free shot as he ran past.

    Naturally the Zero scored a crit and I failed both saves, a 1.25% probability. Underscoring @Alphz point of the current super swingy nature of N4 crits.
     
    #60 Triumph, Jul 27, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
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