I get that people may not want to use Shang Jisus, but he solves a lot of problems. Like my issue is that people bring up WhiteCo Jujaks mixing with ORCs which is 97/1.5 for the ORC HMG, Jujak breaker combi with tinbot, and Jujak engie. Shang Jisus paired with Jujak breaker and Engie is 107/1.5. I fail to see how the White Co version is any better than the WB version other than shaving 10 pts?
IIRC it's A: the Orcs have a Feuerbach/Climbing+, B: if you want to make a Core you can stick Kaplans, CSUs, and Hai Dao in there to beef it up, and C: what the rest of the faction has (Karhu, Varangians, Danavas, Fusiliers) while stealing some of White Banner's best stuff (Tigers, Gui Lang). It's less that White Company can do Jujaks specifically better and more that White Company can do White Banner better. I think. Don't quote me on this.
The WhiteCo links get better Wildcard support. The ORC/Shang Ji pointman is analogous but then the ORC can be backed up by Haidao which are excellent value units with sought after equipment like MSV2 snipers. They also have the option to core link a Pitcher Hacker with Valerya who synergises extremely well with the Jujak's tinbot. The WhiteCo "Jujak" link is also able to slim down unlike the White Banner one as it can bolt 11-12 point CSU's into the real link, which is a Kaplan link. For Example: 5 KAPLAN (Doctor) Combi Rifle, Blitzen ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) JUJAK Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) 1.5 SWC | 110 Points Open in Infinity Army That's a Kaplan Fireteam believe it or not. Just to really rub salt into the wound Liang Kai is allowed to join that fireteam in White Company. Meanwhile in his home faction he's limited to a really shitty duo.
(Actually Orcs can't join Kaplan Fireteams in White Company). Hawkwood can though with his K1 Marksman. You can also slap Shona or Valerya in there. Or the Hai Dao sniper.
I don’t blame you for thinking that due to forum opinion, but both armies are pretty functionally different other than sharing some of the same roster and both being able to play a hacking game. I’ll concede that WhiteCo is way better at cheapening their HI cores with a mix of units. Like WB Core SJ/Jujak is going to be way most costly, but it is fun! I will say though that WB gets access to cheap HI cores through SJ/Zhanshi, which may not be as cool or fancy, but allows you Shang-Jisus, SJ HRL, 2 filler Zhanshis, and a Paramedic Zhanshi for 122 pts. Thats 7 orders and you can make the Zhanshi whatever you really want to fill your specialist quota.
Yeah I realised that mistake, you just sub it out for a Haidao though and get more or less the same result. White Company takes wild steaming shits all over White Banner in regards to the hacking game, it's not even close in terms of being a fair comparison. In terms of being functionally different, yes, they are functionally different in the fact that White Company is a way way way fucking better sectorial. They remind me of pre nerf Dahshat in terms of being some greasy nerd's power gaming dream sectorial.
I actually quite like the Shang Ji Hacker for being BTS 6 in a fireteam with a -6 Firewall, but it is difficult to compete with the raw efficiency that a Danavas brings. White banner lacking any access to Pitchers is also quite rough.
Lacking Pitchers, bespoke custom hacking programs, White Noise, and hyper efficient engineers to keep the hackers rolling while still packing White Banner's forward deploying repeater net augmented by Peacemakers. It's not even remotely fair how badly White Company outclasses them in the infowar space while outclassing them in so many other aspects of the game as well. Take Varangians, strictly better smoke throwing warbands in the N4 meta compared to Shaolin. Or why the fuck are Fugazi AVA 3 for this sectorial? This sectorial was hand crafted by a power gamer with absolutely no regards for theme or fluff I guarantee you. It embodies everything wrong with NAA2 that I can't fucking stand. JSA, Druze, Spiral are all examples of what it should be. Shit like White Company and Dahshat are just fuck awful cash grabs and I hate them.
Like I wrote earlier, that's basically the same criticism you can level at just about anything 20 to 45 points that doesn't have SWC stuff. Like take the Shang-Ji Multi Rifle. Would you ever take that unit alone? Not really. Same price as Jing Qo, but the stat redistribution and the extra ARM and BTS doesn't really do enough to offset that Jing Qo is capable of destroying scenery items, is about average for a melee monster, and also better at shooting thanks to Mimetism actually helping at the FTF stage. That she can run up walls and push buttons are both also a plus. So yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with her stats, it's just that there aren't any solo units like that that aren't utter crap in this game, unless they can be ferried to their destination by units that break through the order cost calculation (and because they are irregular, I don't consider Monks to be it). This game hates rifle-armed costly units with a passion. Stick her in a Fireteam like a Wildcard, though, and I'm sure she'll out-perform Shona. In fact, I know she will 'cause I've played Jing Qo and she did absolutely fantastic once my enemy stepped on the wrong side of the field, but the order economy calculation wasn't favourable.
No I wouldn't take it alone... but that's why it links and hence the offset. I'd be far more willing to consider Jing if she could seek protection inside a real Fireteam. Make her a wildcard or just able to link with Zhanshi and she's in business. Like I said she's in an awkward spot of being too expensive to be viable, but also not elite enough to be useful. If you give her the advantage of fireteam bonuses and order efficiency she's now ticking that more elite box she needs to be a viable option.
Sounds like you put too much emphasis on fireteam bonuses. Have you tried taking a solo Ye Mao or Jujak Spitfire and spending orders on them? I spend orders on unlinked troops in vanilla all the time, works great.
I am primarily a Vanilla YJ player, the vast majority of my game time is with Vanilla. Neither of those units (or Jing) are worth it in a competitive Vanilla list.
I know you love hyperbole, but WhiteCo doesn’t “take wild steaming shits” on WBA hacking game. WhiteCo is significantly better at having a repeater net(peacemakers), access to pitchers(Danavas+ Valerya), and a HD+ with Oblivion B3(Danavas again). WBA does miss out on a lot of these tools, but defensively it is one of the strongest hacking armies in the game. The Hack squad of WBA may not look impressive, but it literally smacks any offensive hacker in the game. WhiteCo gets a lot of awesome hacking, but its pretty average in terms of hacking defense. Now yes VGS are really good, but who cares if WhiteCo gets AVA 3 Fugazi? WBA may only get AVA 2 Chaiya, but they also have access to Long Yas as well as monks to fill in points. Also WhiteCos brute strength is pretty lacking in comparison to WBA. WBA has access to multiple units that shred high ARM where as WhiteCo has like HaiDao, Hawkwood, and a solo Karhu? Oh yeah, Long arms too! WhiteCo is a good army, but to say they are just a better WBA makes me feel like you are just trying to be petty? I have played both armies and they really play differently other than making Guilangs put in work.
Uh, no. It doesn't unless your opponent doesn't understand how to hack. It's crap in a hack fight against a real hacking faction. You envision your opponent lobs a pitcher at them and then tries to brute force fight the massed Zhanshi hackers. That's an unforced rookie error. What actually happens is you declare the ARO Oblivions from the Zhanshi, in this case the Danavas fucking ignores them and Oblivions the Shang Ji to break the link's firewall protection and take the Tinbot offline. That's a 44% chance to go through by the way if the Shang Ji does nothing, and if you dare Reset to protect your premier HI it's 100%. Now you have 4 idiot tier unprotected hackers primed to be wrecked (by one of our very own Haidao in a Tinbot -6 or -3 links even) and gutting your order pool, while their Danavas is likely parked right next to an Engineer so even if you succeeded Isolating it they can be fixed up straight away. And god forbid you try to get into a hacking fight with some of the other actual high end hacking factions like DBS or QK, who demonstrate why your over invested joke link is just that. A joke. Veteran hackers don't care about how many Oblivions you try to sling at them. But the real issue is the opportunity cost of spamming hackers in a Zhanshi link in White Banner is awful from the SWC burden alone locking out the real money making units in that sectorial. You are overlooking the multiple Feuerbach profiles WhiteCo carries. A core linked ORC actually mildly out performs the core linked Shang Ji at bringing down ARM10 in cover. Need to hit a HI Mimetic target in cover such as a Hac Tao? The solo Karhu outperforms the core linked Shang Ji, the built in mimetism and MSV1 swings out over the link bonuses. You are probably making an internal mistake thinking that the burst bonus the Shang Ji carries as significant weight over the Feuerbach profiles but you need to understand that DA ammo statistically does most of the legwork to nullify the advantage there. We're also ignoring the fact that WhiteCo is a perfect example of a sectorial that can perform a core linked pitcher spotlight into a Guided Missile which will fuck up just about any heavily armoured unit's day. WhiteCo are not lacking in this department when you run the odds.
I would rate WC better that WB, with more flexible links, better hacking, and the cheap fusilier core with haidao sniper. Tons of good and cheap harris too. Back to WB I would love for Jujak to get harris in WB only. Would open up some builds, and make it possible to build something without the shang jesus. And open for several of the charaters, like Liang Kai, to be able to join the Jujak harris. Like they did with Lian Kai and Shona in WC where they can link with kaplan harris
White Banner just needs some significant fireteam reworking in general. Its composition is a butchered mess. Not to mention that the troopers that supposedly call the sectorial home have better fireteam prospects in other factions. I had high hopes going in to N4 that the clearly unfinished state of the sectorial at its initial N3 release was just a stopgap to a final, more thought out version, but that absolutely was not the case. I really do wonder what CB was thinking when designing WB, because even disregarding the areas I find it to be thematically lacking, it doesn't even really feel like it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint.
All I can say is it makes more sense if you play it at 400 points, it actually works as intended at that size even if the Shang Ji being in there are fucking weird.
Having messed around with WB in the list builder in both N3 and N4 and not being happy with my ability to fit anything within 300 points that managed to satisfy me both functionally and creatively at the same time, I totally get that. But the problem there lies with Infinity being a game that's supposedly built and balanced around the 300 point cap (something that in the greater scope of the game outside of the frustrating state of YJ's sectorials, I wouldn't want to change). I think a lot of that comes back to the problem of Vanilla YJ and the Kuang Shi battery. Every YJ sectorial (ISS not withstanding, it's just straight garbage) needs to be balanced around the possibility of any of its principle pieces being fueled far more efficiently than it can be in its own sectorial, which leaves them being held back in ways that other factions don't really need to be. Disregarding the awful fireteam compositions available to them, I think that might be the reason why a lot of troopers in WB feel like they'd be in a much more reasonable position if they could more easily get some orders behind them, because they're always considered in the environment where that is much more easily possible. Essentially, turning Kuang Shi into peripheral quasi-equipment, giving them to imperial agents, and cutting out the Regular trooper profiles for them would do more to "open up design space" for YJ and its sectorials than the Uprising ever did. But that would require a bit of work, and I'm not sure CB's interested in that to revamp two or three sectorials that they've pretty much left behind at this point.
So from actually having the luxury of a wide range of factions and sectorials testing 400 points because the local community actually ended up adopting 400 points as a standard over 300, I legitimately and honestly find N4 as a whole functions better at 400. I plan on doing an in depth write up on it but I'm holding off until after the next tournament around here next month which is being run as a 400 point event. That will bring in a few more players that I would like to get feedback and opinions from.
