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Cover for friendly Trooper vs BS Attack into CC

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Teslarod, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yeah sure, don't want to discuss the Target rules I literally quoted earlier

    Target
    Game element capable of being targeted by Attacks, and effects from Skills or Equipment.

    Any trooper can be a target, but Attacks, Skills or Equipment make him the target for an Order.
    Remind me again how a friendly trooper that can not satisfy the conditions to make him the target for a Rifle BS Attack from another friendly trooper, ends up being the target for that BS Attack when it misses the actual target of that BS Attack.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because the shooting into melee rules tells you the trooper gets hit. Thus your trooper becomes the target of your attack. It's really not hard.

    And you're taking the Target rules out of context so that you can assign more meaning to it than it has. The entry above "Target" is "State Token". Plus the reason you can't normally have your own trooper as a target is that you're not allowed to declare that trooper as your intended target, this is not the same as the trooper being completely incapable of being a target of the attack, just that you're not allowed to declare it as such.
     
  3. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    The rule just says that you cannot "DECLARE" an attack against allied troopers. doesn't mean they can't become the target later. Then like Mahtamori just said, it is because a different rule says they are hit. you never broke a rule by them becoming the target, because you never "DECLARED" they were the target.


    This.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    That's made up interaction on your side.
    Completely ignoring that even the BS Attack into Close Combat rules call the enemy trooper the target.

    BS Attack Into a Close Combat
    If a BS Attack is declared against an enemy Trooper that is engaged in CC Combat a -6 MOD must be applied for each Allied Trooper engaged in the CC (in addition to any MODs for Range, Cover, Mimetism... for the target).

    Every failed BS Attack Roll will hit the Allied Trooper, forcing them to perform a Saving Roll. If there are several Allied Troopers locked in that Close Combat, then the Trooper’s player chooses which one of them receives each hit.

    It doesn't say choose which allied trooper becomes the target.
    It says the failed BS Attack Roll will simply hit the Allied Trooper.
    At no point in time is there any percievable correlation in between getting hit and becoming the target as you claim.

    Using actual game terms

    Target
    Game element capable of being targeted by Attacks, and effects from Skills or Equipment.

    being the target requires being targeted by Attacks, not getting hit by Attacks.
    You can be a target without ever taking a single hit.

    Great we have someone pitching in.

    I need one in the rules example of a target changing after Declaration. Or any sort of rule reference that confirms getting hit makes you a target.
    Note it's not in the Template rules, those are placed at declaration, so all targets are locked in then.
     
    #24 Teslarod, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    After a template is placed in ARO, an active trooper can walk into the template for its second short skill and become a target.

    Just sayin'.
     
  6. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    Maybe let’s take a step back. Your argument was that allies couldn’t be the target of an attack. I pointed out the rule says you cannot declare against. I answered specifically to that argument.

    what are you trying to accomplish and why. Why does it matter if they are a target or not?
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Fair, but that's not changing any of the original targets, just adding more.
     
  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Look at the OP.
    The problem is Partial Cover only applies to the Target of a BS Attack.
    Since the wording for hitting your own trooper in a CC with a BS Attack with every shot that misses, never makes your own trooper become the target of that BS Attack, your own trooper doesn't get the -3 DAM if he gets hit by friendly fire (not the Target, no Partial Cover for you).
    Even though the Target (the enemy trooper) will get the damage reduction against anything that hits him in the same Burst.

    This is a stupid interaction, no question about it.
    But it is how the rules handle that interaction at the moment.
    I was trying to confirm that this is in fact stupid, yet how the rule technically works.
    And have been wasting my time ever since on people claiming weird shit (like Medkits being BS Attacks or getting hit on a miss making you the Target, because it is apparently the natural conclusion for reasons that elude me).
     
  9. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    Fair en
    Fair enough, I thought that was where you were going with it. There were a few divergences to the OP so I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.

    My reading is that it still doesn’t matter. Trooper A is the shooter, B is the enemy, and C is the allied trooper in Close combat with B.

    Here are the partial cover rules.

    If the target is in Partial Cover, the attacker will apply a -3 MOD to their BS Attack Roll and the BS Attack’s target reduces the Attack’s Damage by 3 for Saving Roll purposes.

    trooper A shoots trooper B with a Combi Rifle. Trooper B is in partial cover, this causes the attack roll to take a -3 mod. The damage is also lowered to 10 from 13 in the case of a saving roll. Trooper A takes an additional -6 due to attacking into Close Combat for a total of -9. Trooper A misses, therefore hits Trooper C. The damage should be 10 because of the cover rules not caring who takes the saving roll. This is because the wording says that Trooper B is reducing Trooper A’s attack damage by 3 due to partial cover. This should not matter at all of trooper C is in partial cover or wide open taking the shot.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You were so close.
    Look again.

    BS Attack Into a Close Combat
    If a BS Attack is declared against an enemy Trooper that is engaged in CC Combat a -6 MOD must be applied for each Allied Trooper engaged in the CC (in addition to any MODs for Range, Cover, Mimetism... for the target).

    Every failed BS Attack Roll will hit the Allied Trooper, forcing them to perform a Saving Roll. If there are several Allied Troopers locked in that Close Combat, then the Trooper’s player chooses which one of them receives each hit.

    Types of Cover
    Total Cover
    Total Cover completely blocks the attacker's vision of his target, obstructing any LoF to their Silhouette.
    A target is in Total Cover when one or more scenery items completely blocks LoF to its Silhouette.

    Partial Cover
    Partial Cover does not allow the attacker to see the whole Silhouette of their BS Attack's target.
    A target is in Partial Cover when they are in contact with a piece of scenery that partially obscures their Silhouette.

    If the target is in Partial Cover, the attacker will apply a -3 MOD to their BS Attack Roll and the target of the BS Attack reduces the Attack Damage by 3 for Saving Roll purposes, if the Roll was necessary.

    1. Partial Cover reduces Attacker A's BS by 3.
    2. Partial Cover reduces the DAM of hits against Enemy B by 3.
    3. The Shot misses the target, no Roll necessary for the target Enemy B.

    C then gets hit by his friend Attacker A. It does not matter if C is in Partial Cover against the Attacker for the BS Mod for obvious reasons.

    It also does not matter if C is in Total Cover against Attacker A, all failed BS Attacks will still cause C to take the hit that missed.

    There is no retargeting happening. C is never called the Target in this scenario, B however is.

    Enemy B is still the target of that BS Attack and will get hit by all other successful Attack rolls after MODs from the same Burst.

    Ally C however will have to make Saving Rolls for all failed BS Attacks.

    C will not be able to benefit from Partial Cover's Damage -3 MOD which only applies to the target of the BS Attack, which is Enemy B, as mentioned in the BS Attack Into a Close Combat rules.
     
  11. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    I am not seeing it. The rule clearly states it reduces damage for saving roll purposes. If you miss and hit your own guy there is still a saving throw. Nothing says it needs to be the guy you originally targeted.

    In this case your point number 2 would be incorrect, nothing about reducing damage against the target. Just reduces damage if a roll is necessary. Bs attack into cc make a saving roll necessary. I agree with the no retargeting btw, I just don’t think it is necessary to work.
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    ??? it literally says the Damage reduction happens for the target.
    Not the Attack.
    The target.
    I highlighted AND underlined the rule text it in green above FFS.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're still stuck in the mind set that the target can not change as a result of rules or rolls after the player has declared the skill.

    Since a target is anything that can be affected by skills, equipment or attacks, it follows that if they are affected by any of those they are the target of the skill, equipment or attack in question. Hence, if a target is affected by an attack they are the attack's target.
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well lets run your scenario :

    You insist that a "failed Attack agaist the target" results in hitting the target.
    Your interpretation runs into the additional problem that you have to consider relative position for the allied trooper, who now would be the target. The allied trooper would not get Partial Cover because the enemy trooper had Partial Cover.
    The Allied trooper would have to have Partial Cover himself against his ally in your scenario to benefit from Damage reduction.
    Then I ran into the problem of "what if he had Total Cover?".

    BS Attack mention how they set targets.
    It needs to be in LOF at declaration and has the BS Attack declared against it.
    A friendly trooper in CC with an enemy does not have to fulfill that target requirement for BS Attacks and can be around the corner.

    Templates mention how they set targets
    If the template AOE touches the Silhouette during the Order you're a target.

    You might end up getting hit because you are a target of the Attack.
    You don't end up as the target because you get hit.
    When is your interpretation of "Since a target is anything that can be affected by skills" locked in?

    Target

    Game element capable of being targeted by Attacks, and effects from Skills or Equipment.

    The wording isn't "can" but "capable of being targeted". So using your logic any trooper on the board is always a target of any BS Attack declared. Can we agree that doesn't make ayn sort of sense?


    I'll stick with a target for an attack has to be on the receiving end of an Attack declaration (as i.e. per BS Attack requirements) or a template AOE. That's simply how the rules work. I'm not willing to throw everything else over board just because I want go give an ally cover when shooting into CC.
     
    #34 Teslarod, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Partial Cover and Total Cover are not mutually exclusive.

    You're driving my reasoning in reverse. Stop the car, change gear, and drive it forward slowly. The target of the attack is determined by being affected by the attack which in most cases is done by assigning burst to a unit as part of detailing the BS Attack's effects on declaration.
    Basically, "the target of the attack" is analogous to the subject of a sentence.

    So let's look at your reasoning, then, where the target is determined on declaration and never changes.

    You miss the target, your own trooper is hit and is forced to make a Saving Roll. Since your trooper is not the target of a successful attack, you will not apply any special ammunition so it will be a single saving roll - presumably with ARM/BTS and DAM determined by the weapon used, but this is a bit up in the air. Since your trooper is, again, not the target of the attack according to you, if your trooper fails the saving roll you get to apply states to your trooper if that's at all possible and any damage to W/STR attribute will be deducted from the target of the BS Attack which I'll remind you is the enemy trooper.

    So, for a practical example.
    Fusilier Angus is locked in combat with a Guijia. Angus has no realistic hope of surviving, so his "friend" Correira decides to shoot the Guijia with a Feuerbach.
    If Correira hits the Guijia, the Guijia will take 3 ARM saves versus DAM 7 due to ARM and Cover, and the Guijia will take one STR per dice that the Guijia rolls of 1 to 7
    If Correira misses, Fusilier Angus will take 1 ARM save versus DAM 13 due to ARM but not Cover, and the Guijia will take one STR per dice that Fusilier Angus rolls of 1 to 13
     
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  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Sorry but the entire problem here is that this is untrue.
    Your made up definition has no basis or reference in the rules.

    We already established that the wording here varies by Ammo Type.
    Normal Ammunition does not have that problem.
    Other Ammunition like EXP has that problem.
    You're basing your assumption on EXP being the correct wordin for Ammunition and disregarding Normal Ammunition. Which again ignores that ammunition types are not consistent which is a separate issue.

    You're also disregarding that we apply a specific exception of the rules when shooting into CC.
    You normally can't hit things with failed BS Attacks at all.
    Yet here we are hitting our own trooper.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then will you agree to disagree? See from my perspective, you're refusing to discuss the rules you made up so we're really getting nowhere here.
     
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Said the guy who refuses to use the actual wording of a rule and replaces terminology willy nilly to whatever suits him.

    Target
    Game element capable of being targeted by Attacks, and effects from Skills or Equipment.

    No one:...
    You: The target of the attack is determined by being affected by the attack which in most cases is done by assigning burst to a unit as part of detailing the BS Attack's effects on declaration.


    What's wrong with insisting "being affected" leading to be being a target lacks a rule reference and doesn't have anything to do with it?
    Again, you jumbled the AOE rule around until it suits your narrative:

    Area of Effect
    The Area of Effect of a Template is the area it covers with a single declaration of use. For example, if you declare an Attack using a Template Weapon, all Troopers or targets in Silhouette contact or inside the Area of Effect of the Template are affected by the Attack.

    Targets are specifically affected by attacks when Templates are involved.
    This is templates only.
    An it's not you are a target because you are affected by the attack.
    It's you are a target because your Silhouette is in contact with the template and that gets you affected by the Attack. Which for the 10th time, is not relevant because templates and Area of Effect are irrelevant for BS Attacks into CC for the simple reason that you can not hit your own trooper with a template.

    BS Attacks have targets they get declared against.
    BS Attack into CC outlines a specific exception where someone that is explicitly different from the target (which is the enemy trooper BS MODs are calculated against) takes the hit anyway if you miss.
    You try to read the weirdest things into an amalgamation of AOE, Target and BS Attack into CC rules that have no interaction nor the wording you end up presenting.
     
  19. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Mahtamori might be on to something here.

    It clearly says that the target is the one who makes saving roll. Applying shooting into CC rules on top of that I would read it as: friendly trooper has to become the new target because he is the one who makes saving roll now.
     
    #39 Amusedbymuse, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    *sigh*
    Teslarod, you'll have to be satisfied with black and white here, I find lots of colours hard to read and a bit demeaning like you're trying to talk to a child.

    A Target is a "game element capable of being targeted[...]" as I quoted in the third reply, though since it took you until the fifteenth reply to quote it I assume you missed the fact. As you can see, a Target is capable of being targeted. That doesn't mean that a target is a target because it is being targeted. This also does not support your read that a skill's target is set in stone and can't be changed by another rule, so I'm very curious what rule you base that one.

    On top of this, the whole process with treating the target of a skill as a single specific entity falls on its arse in the most absurd way, as I've detailed above, and that you're refusing to address.

    Instead you keep clinging on to the abandoned argument over template weapons and try to force anyone who doesn't share your opinion to defend their stance. Seriously, dude, drop it. Like I've written, it is upsetting to find that the rules do not explicitly bring up that allied troopers are not allowed to be directly attacked, and this is not a debate that you need to win by scoring cheap points by being aggressive.

    So please please if you're not willing to agree to disagree, at least stop attacking and start discussing so we can get somewhere.
     
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