1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Avatar [Lieutenant: +1 Order] in ISOLATED state

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Pettynyt Pelaaja, Oct 25, 2020.

  1. A question from the Spanish forum ... [Edit and add: link to thread]

    If an Avatar with [Lieutenant: +1 Order] goes to the ISOLATED state, what would happen to his two Lieutenant orders? Would he keep them for him as Irregular orders?

    I assume its own order and the it gets from Tactical Awareness keeps to itself, right?
     
    #1 Pettynyt Pelaaja, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2020
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    If I understand this correctly, he "loses" them because they're not "his" - they've been generated by him into the Order Pool. When Isolated, he cannot receive orders from the Pool, so nobody can use those two Orders, unless you have another model with NCO.

    At the start of the next Active Turn, you go into Loss of Lieutenant and if the Avatar is still Isolated, he does not generate his LT orders anymore.

    I would assume he keeps his own Order and the Tac Aware one, because the TA one is "granted to the user".
    upload_2020-10-25_14-13-4.png

    upload_2020-10-25_14-16-23.png
     
  3. Making the answer more general, can we say that a lieutenant in Isolated State does not generate lieutenant order/orders?
     
  4. Scarecrow88

    Scarecrow88 Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    21
    If your LT is Isolated at the beginning of your active turn then you'll be in Loss of Lieutenant anyway.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    If the Avatar starts his turn in Isolated State he stops being Lt before Order generation.
    If you have a Caliban CoC, he'll be Lt that turn but will only generate 1 Lt Order.
    If your Avatar gets Isolated by an ARO, he still is Lt for that player turn and you can keep spending his Tactical Awareness or Lt Orders.

    Isolation prevents you from accessing the Order Pool, which Tac Aware and Lieutenant Order are specifically not part of:
    - This Order is not included in the Order Pool, but is kept separate for the Lieutenant to use. The status and expenditure of the Lieutenant Special Order is Open Information.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  6. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    Yes.

    And as soon as he's isolated, he loses access to the Order Pool where "his" LT orders are.
     
  7. Thank you all for your answers. :blush:
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    4,262
    Likes Received:
    8,073
    I feel like there were conflicting answers - can a lieutenant spend the lieutenant order(s) it generated earlier that turn if it is currently isolated?
     
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    No, because it cannot receive orders from the Order Pool where the LT orders were placed.

    EDIT:

    OK, I was wrong. LT Orders don't go into the Pool, so I guess the isolated LT can use them after all.

    upload_2020-10-25_18-41-28.png
     
  10. Another thing that has been pointed out in the Spanish forum is that the Isolated State is not a Null State, so it is not applicable that the Lieutenant does not generate the Lieutenant Orders during the Count of Orders (the latter only happens if it is in Null State).
     
  11. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    The Avatar has no Lt. Orders at all. As written in the strategos rule (sonce L1 and L2 have the same wording in this matter I screen captured L1) the Lt. Orders are converted into Regular orders

    Screenshot_20201025-191422_Firefox.jpg
     
    meikyoushisui and inane.imp like this.
  12. Yes, correct, but that is not the issue that is being discussed here. We all know that Lieutenant Orders transform into Regular Orders.

    The question is, does the Avatar generate the Lieutenant's Orders? Because if it does not generate them, whether or not they become Regular is irrelevant because there is nothing to convert.
     
    #12 Pettynyt Pelaaja, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2020
  13. Scarecrow88

    Scarecrow88 Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    21
    Loss of Lieutenant is triggered by a null state or Isolated.
     
  14. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    Exactly
     
  15. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    As Scarecrow88 pointed out (and I assumed to be common knowlege in this thread) Loss of Lieutenant is triggered by the isolated Avatar and therefore no Lieutenant is present on the table during the order count.
     
    #15 Tristan228, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
    inane.imp likes this.
  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    Some potentially useful discussion of that issue here: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/extremely-niche-question.37989/#post-367778
     
  17. Now that I look at it, there is a serious discrepancy in the wording of the Loss of Llieutenant rule between the English and Spanish Rulebooks, which complicates the question we are dealing with here.


    In English it is said that it is mandatory «you must» choose a new lieutenant at the end of the turn in which you are in Loss of Llieutenant, while in Spanish it is optional: «puedes (= you can)».

    If you have to assign a new lieutenant there is no problem, because the next turn you will have a new lieutenant who will generate its lieutenant order (or orders) in the normal way, but ...
    If it is optional and you decide not to appoint a new lieutenant, there is a problem of what happens to the Lieutenant Orders of an Isolated Lieutenant.

    I think that before discussing anything else we should know if it is mandatory or optional.


    Edit and add: I have already asked the rules staff the question of mandatory or optionality.
     
    #17 Pettynyt Pelaaja, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2020
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    As I've contended in an earlier thread, Strategos treats the converted Regular order into the Order Pool in strict singular form much like how Minelayer informs us that deployavle weapon in singular may be deployed, so whether we all know the Avatar's orders get converted is contested.

    As for an Isolated LT generating orders is concerned; this was answered earlier: no, isolated Avatars aren't ever LTs.
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  19. I think this was clarified by ijw in another thread, I do not remember in which one, for which I neither affirm nor deny.

    Regarding this, can you please indicate in which part of the rulebook or in what official clarification such a thing is said?
    It is not because I doubt your answer. The question is not mine, I'm only transmitting it from the Spanish forum and I want to be able to indicate to them what the answer is based on.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I don't believe he responded to my challenge on use of singular.

    Please refer to Isolated State.
    "Additionally, if the Isolated Trooper is the army's Lieutenant, then at the beginning of the player's next Active Turn the army enters a Loss of Lieutenant situation unless the state is cancelled before then."
    Which is also cross referenced in the Lieutentant Special Order rule.
    "If, during the Tactical Phase of the Turn, the Lieutenant is in an Isolated or any Null State (Unconscious, Dead, etc.) or has not been deployed on the gaming table, the Loss of Lieutenant rule will be applied."

    And dealt with in the Chain of Command rule
    "
    Requirements
    • The player can only activate this Special Skill when the Lieutenant enters Isolated State or any Null State."
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation