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C1 lack of Guts and difficulties dodging

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Lawson, Aug 23, 2020.

  1. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    One challenge I've noticed is that the option to do a 2" move after a Dodge is predicated on winning the face-to-face roll with the attacker, so even if you succeed in your dodge roll, if the attacker rolls higher, you neither avoid their shot, NOR do you get the option to make a move afterwards. This means that if you find yourself out of position and vulnerable, you can get slammed with attack after attack from multiple opponent activations, and continue to fail at ducking back behind cover. Obviously I understand that a dodge of any value may at least reduce the number of hits you get overall depending on what your opponent rolls with their Burst, though shooting back can achieve this same effect (and when the range bands are in your favor, can achieve a much better result as well).

    I looked at the current N3 rules to see if I could find any insight or additional rules for dodging that might make the game design intent more clear to me, and lo and behold, there is a mechanism, "Guts" which functions sort of like a second option to make a dodge (e.g. 2" move or go prone) after getting hit by (and surviving) attacks. The idea seems to be that a figure can be unnerved by being shot at, and is forced to take cover due to 'failing' the Guts roll, but in some cases it actually seems like failing would be preferable if it took you out of harm's way, and it essentially adds to the likelihood that a figure escapes after the first attack rather than standing there getting shot over and over again.

    I decided to play some games of C1 incorporating the Guts Check, and it actually improved the experience for me both mechanically and thematically. Not only did it allow figures to get out of the way and protect themselves when they were getting wailed on - but it also helped to be able to suppress enemy snipers denying large areas of the board via AROs, forcing them to duck down into cover so that my squad could advance. It resulted in much more dynamic situations and much fewer stalemates where the board would lock up, and I'm not sure I want to play any of my games without Guts now. Any thoughts on this? How is Guts looked upon in N3? Does it feel like a mistake to not have it natively in C1, considering it's such an easy rule to incorporate?
     
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  2. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    It's easy to incorporate, but there's already a lot going on in Code One for a newer player to keep track of. In my experience Guts is also very commonly forgotten, since it's something you have to remember to do after an order is concluded. I think its absence helps keep Code One focused on spending orders and engaging in Face to Face engagements. Don't want your trooper to die? Position them smartly, and/or win your F2Fs.

    If you find Guts improves your Code One experience, I doubt most people would object to playing with it added on. You may also find N4 provides the full tactical experience you're looking for, once we actually get our hands on it ;)
     
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  3. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Guts was left out of C1 as part of the simplification process. They removed all forms of "forced" movement along with Impetuous.

    It is very much part of the N4 ruleset though.
     
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  4. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I would like to specify, for the OPs benefit, that Guts is very often forgotten by new players. As you get more experienced Guts gets more and more to be a part of your game plan both as attacker and defender, and thus rarely gets forgotten.

    For example, a defender might decide to attempt to pass the first Guts roll in order to stay in the way of the attacker. The same player may then decide to voluntarily fail the next roll simply to conserve the model after having drained one or more additional order from the attackers order pool. Or in another case the defender might clamour for the opportunity to fail the Guts roll in order to conserve a model that was left out of cover during the active turn.

    An attacker might be just as happy to force a Guts check as to kill a defending model just to get it out of the way and continue towards an objective.

    Any way you look at it, Guts is a game changer between CodeOne and full Infinity.
     
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  5. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Aha, hadn't seen that additional part in the rules- that you can choose to fail the roll VOLUNTARILY! That makes it even more useful. Thanks. And thank you for the additional info FlipOwl and everyone.
     
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  6. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Another thing came up the other day that sort-of reinforced my desire for Guts in C1, because of how the ALERT order works.

    Picture this: Troopers A and B are chilling behind a building - both of them are looking in the wrong direction to see Enemy trooper C sneaking up from behind around a corner.
    Trooper C enters Trooper A’s Zone of Control as he rounds the corner, provoking an ARO. Since trooper A does not have LoF to trooper C but assumes an attack is coming, he dodges at -3.

    Trooper C fires a BS attack at Trooper A and rolls well enough to score some potential hits, and Trooper A’s dodge roll fails the F2F, so he doesn’t get his dodge move to turn-around. Thankfully, Trooper A makes his saves against Trooper C's attack, and so the bullets bounce harmlessly off his back.

    Here’s where things get a bit wonky. Trooper B ‘hears’ the gunfire directed at Trooper A, and, because trooper A is within his ZoC (and vice versa), he can “Alert” and turn to face Trooper C. Trooper A, on the other hand, seemingly cannot do this because he already burned his ARO on the failed dodge. The text for Alert says: The Trooper CANNOT have been activated by an Order or ARO in the same Order. That means that even though Trooper A was the target of the attack, presumably sensed danger coming from behind, and tried to dodge (and then felt the bullets ricochet off his armor), he remains facing away from the threat (because Guts is not a thing, he can't intentionally fail the guts roll to move/turn).

    Is this correct? Does it feel like it’s working as intended that Trooper A can’t turn around after being hit by an attack? Maybe we could rationalize that the attack temporarily stuns him, but then how would we justify it if the attack had missed (and the dodge roll still failed as well)? I realize the cross-section of many orders that used to interact in particular ways has changed in C1 - notably Alert is quite different from how it worked in N3, and Change Facing doesn't appear to be a thing anymore - it just feels odd that the target of the attack can't turn around, even though everyone else within his ZoC could (unless he chooses to just give up the Dodge attempt altogether and do an Alert instead).
     
  7. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Make sure to also consider Religious units when incorporating Guts rolls into your play.
     
  8. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Knauf. When playing C1 with Guts, I'm using "Religious Troop" for figures like the Knight of Justice and "Courage" (in place of G: Remote Presence) for my REMs, and for figures like the Jujak, who possess Courage in N3. Are there any other abilities that affect Guts?
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Just to throw in here, the example you're talking about is probably a good reason why guts was left out of code 1. It is not simply a free move after suffering ARM rolls. There are several restrictions on guts moves which complicate it and I can see why they left it out.
    Eg. if you cannot improve your cover, you just drop prone. There is no turning to face as part of that. You can only turn to face if you can move 2" to better cover.

    If you want a free turn to face, you need to choose to forsake your ARO. It is intentionally a choice to reward a flanking attack, which, given how LoF works is pretty difficult to pull off.

    If you want some realism justification, an order happens in seconds to milliseconds frame of time. a Dodge represents a move to try and avoid the enemy attack, and may or may not involve getting to cover (represented by the face to face roll). Where as forgoing dodge for turn face might be focusing on getting a bead on your opponent and not caring about the incoming fire. These would be split second decisions and can represent mutually exclusive actions from the trooper.
     
  10. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty good justification. In fairness I have been playing essentially 'correctly' with the Guts rules (taking into account the order of priority in terms of full cover and partial cover and when the prone state is forced vs when and how you're allowed to move). I'm on the fence about continuing to use it in C1 for the purposes of cleanliness/correctness in the rules (and just generally getting better at playing the game properly), but I do find that there are occasionally some goofy situations where it feels like it creates a 'gap' in the C1 ruleset to not Guts in it. I also like the distinction created by units like Remotes and such thematically not caring that they're being shot at.
     
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  11. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    The "Guts" rule hasn't been a thing in ANY of the previous "simplified" rulesets, either (Operation:Purple monkey Dishwasher, etc). So it's not just something new that they left out of C1.
     
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  12. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    In the described situation, Model A has two choices.
    1) Roll a Dodge. Note that if no attack comes his way, the Dodge is PH and not PH-3.
    2) Do not declare ARO at all and gaining Alert at the end of the order (if he survives...)
     
    #12 tox, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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  13. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Dodging without lof to the activated trooper is always -3, an attack is not a condition for that.

    Certain attacks such as template weapons will cause an additional -3 for a total mod of -6 if the ARO trooper does not have lof
     
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  14. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Right, my bad!
     
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