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New nomad unit in N4 ?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by PurpleSquid, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    We're going to have to agree to disagree.
     
  2. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    My bad, I have to make myself clear. I do not question the numbers but the interpretation.

    Tunguska is an expensive sectorial so taking a Securitate link is a frequent option to get some cheap orders. The Grenzer comes in naturally as he is the only option to upgrade the link defensively.
     
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  3. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    I think it's just a matter of different expectations. I know I didn't want any more gear on my Wildcats, I just wanted them to come down in cost so they could fit in with the other stuff in the Sectorial. This seems to be going the opposite direction.

    I hope they don't do it to my Druze, they already cost an arm and a leg for a mix of things that may or may not get used in a game.
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You mean like N3->N4 TAGs getting more deadly, more Orders and cheaper as a result of them not functioning properly in the N3 framework is out of the question?

    MI has the same problem, to a higher extent even.
    Their durability is poorly reflected by their pointcost and the only thing they have to show for it is more gear, which they have to pay for, then amplifying the problem.
    Especially if it's baked into the default troop rather than individual Profiles. 4-2 was a hamstring, 4-4 is them not hamstrung and back to baseline rather than buffed.

    Same as N3 Orcs find their ways into Fusilier Links - because BS17 SWC guns for the price of 4 Fusiliers is manageable - Number 2 and a BS13 MSV1 Core Linked whatever are fine as a one off. That doesn't make Wildcats great, that showcases the mix and match power of Wildcard.
    Without a solution why anyone should ever run a full Link of Wildcats, they might as well AVA2 and we could stop pretending MI are self sufficient and useable, rather than spare parts storage for tools unfortunately unavailable on a better alternative.

    Suggesting a 1W ARM2 MI should go anywhere close to a ZOC, likely as part of an aggressive Link is a bit jarring considering every Shotgun wielding troop just gained a (B2) DTW and the general state of aggressive 1W trooper links.
    A Haris of Grenzers runs you how much in N4? Price of a Szally?

    Disclaimer: I don't even play Nomads and don't understand why Wildcats didn't even get the attempt at a LSG/SMG/DTW + X filler to at least give the illusion of being a Link. It's not a problem and even desireable that Sectorial troops are bad outside their Links and Sectorials.
    But cmon, Grenzers, vs Wildcats vs Riot Grrrls. How is it hard to see who is going to collect dust at this rate?
     
    #304 Teslarod, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  5. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe we can agree that expensive one-wound units lead to a very dice-dependent experience.

    And Infinitys dice system is not known for being very forgiving for bad dice rolls. I can understand everyone who does not want to put all eggs in one basket and yolo the mission. The current order-heavy meta confirms that preference I think.

    No-one asked for so many new tools on Wildcats that their point cost draws near HI territory.
     
    #305 Ghost87, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Thanks for the clarification, and I don’t disagree at all with your explanation of why the Grenzer gets used in Tunguska. But that’s the sole point I was trying to make from the data - they get used.
     
  7. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    This and the rumoured change of Sepulchre to an S5 mini-TAG really kills my enthusiasm for N4. Way to meddle with my favourite (if under-appreciated) units. Guess my unusual tastes are going to blow in my face :/
    (and I bet Teutons will still remain bad)
     
  8. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    So the problem was MI are over costed because they have expensive equipment on a vulnerable platform, and the solution was to add even more expensive equipment (and make them more likely to die to crits) rather the adjust the base cost to fair value.

    Colour me suddenly non confident about price and profile adjustments in general in N4.
     
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  9. SpectralOwl

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    Don't know about you, but I've never played on an Infinity table where you couldn't get into ZoC without ever drawing LoS. 8 inches is pretty big, most centrepiece buildings rarely prevent Hacking from the other side. I'd be happy bringing a Spitfire-Hacker-Shotgun Haris of nuWildcats once in a while to handle the attack and bunker up under hard ARO for reactive, same way I'd use a similarly-costed TAG.

    I'm also starting to suspect CB has just given up on non-mixed links altogether, considering there have been precisely none released in over a year.
     
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Is this publicly available data?
     
  11. SpectralOwl

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    IJW's already given a link to it in a post above.
     
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  12. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
    Warcor

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    IMO the Wildcat profile costs signal a good thing for the Grenzers. I've jokingly said that "they are the same picture." meme, but they really are not. They have several more skills than the Grenzers, and No. 2 & Terrain: Total is huge.

    It's not hard for me to see where Grenzers will possibly shave some points in N4 and get 4-4 MOV. If it happens it will probably be a small reduction, but anything is welcome.

    Also, Grenzers were not only taken as MSV ARO units... the Spitfire in a link is one of TJC's better gunfighters.
     
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  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I understood "MI should go down in cost" as "4-2 should be a bigger discount."
     
  14. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I feel exactly opposite, but that might be because I really like SHI, and hoped PanO will get them for a long time now. If I were a betting man I'd wager Teutons will get much better, too.
     
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  15. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Correct, but after initially loving him when the sectorial was new, I was quickly disillusioned about the abysmal non-synergy with the Securitate Repeater/White Noise combo, for which an additional Securitate HMG is be required.

    The supposed loss of FD1 does also interfere with the Spitfire rangebands. I will play him from time to time, but given that the DTW of the FT now synergies with the MSV1 in smoke the Sensor profile will be my go-to choice.
     
  16. Lampyridae

    Lampyridae Well-Known Member

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    And who is the Fireteam Leader in these mixed units? Usually some CH: Mimetism punk or an MSVL2 weenie with smoke coverage.

    Hah, so many times I've thought "yeah, I got 2 wounds on this one, I'll be fine" only to be gibbed by an Irregular bozo with a DERP.

    People take big Order Pools more because simultaneously killing the enemy and pushing buttons requires huge Order consumption, especially with those annoying Bacon Field-type missions.

    Global Number 2 on Wildcats is huge. By far the biggest change IMO, because here is a Fireteam that can wade in and shrug off casualties. With Courage, they simply will not fold. It is absolutely a non dice- or position-dependent benefit. Only Isolation (as understood in N3) can break the Fireteam, or just getting your army's ass completely handed to them.
     
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  17. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    There is not much Fireteam left to save with N2 after loosing 1 out of 3 members.

    Also a bigger thread than losing the FT Leader in an even fight in active will be losing 80-90 Pts to a single chain rifle wielded by a 6 Pts Warband.

    The same issue why moiras are mostly played against noobs and in fun lists.

    Don't get me wrong. I see MI as toolbox and am glad that we are going to keep Wildcats in contrast to Bolts but 5 Pts per unit are 15 Pts more which are missing in support units such as Jaguars or a Bandit as guard for the investment not even counting the extra orders.
    24 Pts is not too much for a MI with that toolkit and I will play them but _if_ the rest of Corregidor stays roughly the same, they will have strong competition.
     
    #317 Ghost87, Sep 11, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  18. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I like this new way of defending CB copy pasting profiles by saying they have different weaponry. So if I take a ML Keisotsu and call him Bunraku or something like that is that a new unit? Can we do that with every loadout and then say we have a bazillion new units and it's not lazy design at all? Because it's happening quite a lot recently that we are presented with "new units" that happen to be carbon copies of existing units with just a new weapon loadout (see Zuyong and Jujak f. e.)
    I get the company has to keep selling new and shiny minis, but couldn't we either get the unreleased minis for many already existing profiles or at least get a little bit of creativity? Supposedly the denesting of skills for N4 should be encouraging this, but untill now all I see is the same "add Mimetism/MSV ftw" and "all the cool kids are doing NWI + Shock Imm these days"

    And lastly, I feel like the "but you don't have Grenzer in Corregidor" excuse is just sad; do we really need duplicate units for each Sectorial in the same faction? does every faction need to have access to the same things? Aren't then we playing basically the same army painted in different colors? Is this just an excuse to keep selling us the same uninspired profiles over and over?
     
    #318 Benkei, Sep 11, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Its really telling that the BJC MI (which are going to go from bad in N3 to unplayable in N4) didn't even get mentioned but got superseded by the HI

    Wait MO are getting Terminators to go with their Biker?


    The more I've been thinking about it the more I've come around on the NuCats, and if the current wildcards in CJC stay the same they will be fairly good, if Lupe loses wildcard then they'll lose a lot of their appeal but still be usable. I've often found points to not be an issue in CJC and it was always SWC that kept throwing me out and the SWC drop on the WCs heavy weapons and baseline haris helps alleviate that a lot. They also give CJC it's second KHD (or third if you count jazz as a KHD) which is also a good thing as it frees up a bandit slot to be something else.
     
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  20. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    No because they would have the same weapon.
     
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