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total immunity arm/bts

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by dhellfox, Jun 22, 2020.

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  1. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Yeah, Karakuris can be quite durable, and in my opinion, there is nothing that wrong about it, considering that they are not as much of a ball-busting gun platform as any proper TAG is, sporting only Mk12, going to BS13 / Burst 4 / DAM 15 up to 24'' at most in an expensive Haris link team easily hitting 108+ points. Without any kind of visual mods, we are looking here at a shooting capability actually worse than the one provided by core linked Keisotsu HMG, and that says a lot.

    Yeah, they are brilliant at tanking DA, EXP, Monofilament, AP, T2, E/M and another exotic kind of stuff, however, their high armour does not hold up against high burst weapons, templates and crit-fishing.
    - Any kind of TR drone poses a serious threat to Karakuris, outranging and outshooting them by a sheer weight of fire and high DAM that can not be negated by Total immunity - and as soon as you leave cover to try and reach better range, your armour 6 does not really protect that well anymore.
    - Any kind of TO Camo / ODD troopers can reliably outshoot Karakuris as long as they keep outside of the Chain Rifle range. Actually, cheap warbands with direct template weapons are also quite scary for them, since you can't use cover Armor bonus that Karakuri desperately needs to achieve that "crazy durability" you've been talking about.
    - Hacking, jamming, adhesive launchers and specifically riotstoppers can be extremely painful, as you watch your premier-costed piece get immobilised and isolated.

    Therefore, Karakuri power is not the same as the power of TAGs, neither are the tasks they are good at achieving. Their purpose is to press buttons reliably (even if it means getting utterly destroyed in the process), removing light ARO pieces like warcors and flash pulses, and generally being a nasty roadblock in reactive turn. No big game killing, no quick cheerleader sweeping, no jammer or hacking immunity (and they hate being isolated, btw), no camouflage hunting, no-frills in general besides being durable. If you're lucky with your armour rolls and don't get critted too, that is.

    For that one has to pay 38-43 points, and for that price, Karakuri is just a decent unit with a very specific role and a rather unique way of delivering it.

    P.S. Also, TAGs usually suck and it's not a very good idea to compare typical boring non-Pano Guija/Scarface/Lizard/whatever crap with Karakuris. Try comparing them to Cutter, Uhlan or Tikbalang instead, and you will see the difference :)
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Should make all nonlethal ammo have full effect vs. Total Immunity. Why would a werewolf being tough prevent his radio from being blown out?
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Aight, compare them to a Gecko. At best you're making the argument that they should cost about as much as one of those.

    They're going to be more resistant against crit-fishing come N4, and all the things you describe are still things that TAGs are just as vulnerable to.

    Again, how is that different from a Gecko?

    They're still ARM6 against said template weapons, and can dodge better than a lot of TAGs.

    They're less vulnerable to hacking than TAGs since they can't be Possessed, and dodge ok.

    You have failed to show this; many of the points you made were just flat-out wrong.


    I'm comparing them to something like a Gecko or a Xeodron, which is more the kind of TAG they're more durable than *and* cheaper. And both of those see play.
     
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  4. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    I've said if you compare Karakuris with proper TAGs. Now, you decided to pick the weakest, the most useless TAGs available that are stat-wise worse than a regular-issue Pano Heavy Infantry (or even alone Zyuong TacAwareness/ HMG, for that matter), and want to deliberately punch Karakuris for some reason. Very well.

    Glad for you that you get to see Geckos in your meta, but generally, outside of that, they are as much of a meme as Guijia is and are admittedly not quite ITS capable. I'd never see a Gecko on a tournament, and you can easily see that Geckos are worse than Karakuris in the roles they can perform, both as a gunfighter and as a specialist (Geckos do get twice as many orders though and a bit of extra damage, but they suck nonetheless). This is not a problem with Karakuris, this is a problem with Geckos. It does not really matter which profile of that price range you compare Geckos to, they are terrible.

    Speaking of Xeodrons, those can have a better gun (Red Fury) and they can Super-Jump, which is not something that Karakuri can even come close to. You effectively get a capacity to snipe off all those pesky hiding cheerleaders thinking they are safe on the rooftop - Karakuris won't do that for you. So, they have a bit of a different role. As a pure gunfighters, sure, not as durable as Karakuris - that could be a problem with Xeodrons as well. I've seen them on the table sometimes, not as often on ITS events though.

    More of your "proofs" that my points are "wrong":

    We don't know that. It's possible, as well as it is possible they nerf TI or buff TAGs in general, as they did last year. Useless to speculate on that now.

    Hey, dodge on 10! Wow, what a wonderful way of protecting themselves against templates, that will not go away after you dodge them (unless it's a mine, but then it's a dodge on 7 - does not count as a good dodge in my book. Check up Magister Knights or Libertos or something else that has an actually good change of success dodging)

    In reality though, you most often exchange templates with your target and hope that armor 6 is going to save you against that chain rifle, nanopulser, mine or whatever else instead, because you don't want to repeat that dodging roll, neither you want to be shot with BS weapon while you are trying to dodge.

    It's a valid point they can not be possessed. Do you see TAGs get possessed often though? Do you see Assault hackers often though? In ITS, in meta filled with Killer Hackers? I bet it won't be so much.
    Instead, what happens is you get isolated and have to repair your Karakuri stuck in the midfield on the way to accomplishing the objective, getting to a good ARO spot or trashing some ARO of theirs (with a few extra orders spent until you win that FtF roll)

    As a heavy infantry, Karakuris have a crappy qualification of Spec.Trained Troops, so they cannot do Veteran/Elite/HQ troops missions; neither they can score in missions like Show of Force, so there is a bit of a meta buff there for TAGs, that kinda evens this out, in my view.

    And most important of all, you must see them in the context, namely in JSA and in Ikari, where they are available. None of those is well-known for good long-range guns, ODD HMGs, or even good link teams that could really bring out the pain. Karakuris are, in fact, not a luxury, but a necessity whenever one finds oneself in a situation he/she cannot deal with the ARO due to a lack of easy, reliable tools. So what happens instead is that you bring your Karakuri up the field, try and get rid of that pesky Kamau Sniper by shooting at it over several attempts, you sacrifice that piece to delay your opponent from crushing your pathetic useless Keisotsus hiding on the back lines, and you've paid for that heftily.

    What does not happen is that you go on and absolutely terrorise your opponent with your Mk12 on BS13, smashing all of his troops and ignoring all the returned fire completely. Karakuris are not that order-efficient, unlike some proper TAGs, like Sphinx, Cutter, Avatar, Marut or Tikbalang, that are fast, durable and powerful enough to do exactly that in one turn, provided with some good support.

    So, I think there's a reply for all of your points now, and no need to be personal. I'm attacking your opinion, not you here, and have nothing against you to say. You did not fail in any regard, besides maybe seeing the big picture here.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In before Karakuri go back to being BTS 3.

    You're having a storm in a presumed tea cup. Now, tea cups are very large as far as cups go (more accurately; I take my tea in pints), but you're still assuming how Total Immunity works and what profiles with Total Immunity will have for stats. So far the only indication we've had is that Monofilament will work on Total Immunity.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is either disingenuous or stupid on your part. If you haven't seen Geckos in play you probably don't play that much; Xeodrons are seen more rarely but I get use out of them.

    Let's keep in mind that Karakuris are cheaper points-wise than even these TAGs.

    You're just flat-out wrong, dude. If you've never seen a Gecko in a tournament, you probably don't play in that many tournaments. I don't even see you having any ITS ranking, period, so I'm not going to take your views on the matter very seriously.

    Given how fat Xeodron bases are, they oftentimes can't Super-Jump up to the top of buildings without taking a long skill to do so. The skill on them is nice, but it's much more useful on something like a Samaritan (who they like to pal around with).

    And Karakuris can shrug off random missile crits, so they've got that going for them. Again, higher durability and similar gunfighting abilities for less points. There are going to be some targets for which a MK12 is better than a red fury, and for chewing up light infantry, a combi works just fine, you don't need the K1. And the Heavy Shotgun, Flash Pulse, and template weapons are things that the Xeodrons just don't have access to.

    Which you have failed to contradict in any meaningful way.

    It's possible, but I'm focusing on what we have confirmed. And I'm making the point now, because if they just hurr-durr their way through Total Immunity in N4, it's going to be a big balance problem.



    That's great! Exchanging templates is an *even better* deal for the Karakuri, since they are likely to kill whatever they're blasting, and are more durably than almost all other models vs. templates. They can't even be fried by E/M.



    You don't need an AHD to possess a TAG. I see the occasional assault hacking device used, but the point is it's a threat. If the Karakuri was going to be isolated, then the TAG was going to be, too. They're changing falling damage in N4 because of the NPE of someone possessing your TAG and jumping off a building, so it happens often enough. I've seen Polynikes do it quite a few times.

    Most TAGs are Mechanized Troops, so you have failed to make a point here.

    Well, sure if, you use the Karakuri like an idiot, as you described, you're going to lose. The question is more what an intelligent player might do with it, like have it in SF Mode covering an objective, or make a run to push a button covered by a model with a missile launcher.


    Let's be clear here, you're claiming to speak authoritatively about something you don't know much about. You're saying that Geckos don't see tournament play, which isn't true, and you're moving the goalposts like mad when comparing the Karakuri to light TAGs. It isn't personal, but you need to understand that you're wrong here.
     
  7. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    He had me with "you have to compare 40 points Karakuris with 100 points TAGs because I say so"

    Utterly non biased JSA player there.
     
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  8. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    The last "argumentation" of Hecaton was straight-out trolling and the case of ad hominem, so it would be more prudent to simply ignore that, but I will answer. If you don't trust me for whatever reason, I can simply refer to established authorities to prove my point:

    1. Daboarder's primer on TAGs tactics [1]
    2. Vaulsc's list of units to fix for N4, highlighted moments: [2]
      a. Gecko
      b. Xeodron
    3. Section9's post in Gecko discussion thread [3]


    Your point is: Karakuris are doing TAG's job better and cost cheaper, you are using Geckos and Xeodrons as an example for comparison.
    My point is: Karakuris fulfil a different role than TAGs and should not be compared to them in the first place. Yes, they do better than Geckos for cheaper cost, but Geckos are crap in the first place and are not going to do well whoever you compare them with.

    According to [1], main battle TAG's job is to
    1) blast things with overwhelming fire,
    2) provide devastating ARO's with Multi HMG rounds and
    3) be an absolute pain in the butt to remove, stopping the enemy in their tracks.

    Yes, Karakuris do 3) rather well, to a certain degree, as long as they are in their favourable range and are not being shot with a high burst, high damage weaponry or templates. But they fail in 1) and 2) and you shouldn't rely on them in the same way you would rely on TAGs. TAGs also can be better in 3) in situations where they are facing plain HMGs or Spitfires, due to having a higher ARM value and higher amount of wounds they can sustain (3 STR is still more than 2 STR+Dogged, obviously).

    Main battle TAGs are much more expensive than Karakuris, but they excel in all those points rather than just 3), so their higher price is generally justified.

    The light TAGs serve a bit of a different purpose, they are not expected to stay on ARO duty as much as the main battle TAGs, but they still do well in eliminating things and often have some good tools to get into spots unfavourable for the opponent, such as marker state, climbing plus, super jump, etc.

    Now, if you look at Geckos, they do none of that well and do not fit into either of those categories. They are slow, short-ranged and don't have nearly enough armour to tank the hits as TAGs should. According to [3], they are more of an oversized non-linkable (we don't count Duo here) HI that attracts a lot of attention due to being a TAG. That could be useful, I suppose, but in my opinion, a bit too much for 57-58 points. Same goes for Xeodrons, but those have at least some additional utility with the Super-Jump - so fitting a bit more into light TAG category. You can also watch Vaulsc' video [2] to see what could be fixed to make them better.

    Moreover, Nomads actually have a plenty of better HI than Geckos: Kriza Boracs, Hollow Men, Task Masters, hell, even dumb plain Mobile Brigada by virtue of carrying HMG rather than 2xCombis or Mk12. Why would anyone pick Gecko in this context is beyond me, and honestly, I would consider people that use Geckos in tournaments as challenge seekers. I'm playing infinity for 3 years, and in my tournament meta, in Germany, I have never seen Geckos on the table - and it's not surprising considering a very limited use you can get out of them overall. How useful do you find them, personally? How often would they be worth 57 points investment, honestly?

    As a Nomad player, if you want a TAG, you'd go with something like Szalamandra (for superior firepower) or Lizard (because HGL is always fun), not Geckos. If you want HI, you'd go with the aforementioned Kriza Boracs or Hollow men since they are just cheaper and better at the tasks you want to accomplish. If you'd have Karakuris, you'd pick them, of course - but it's not like there's no other good choice in there, right?

    If you want to make a fair comparison with Karakuri, check out an amazing Santiago Knight with Spitfire that costs 43/1.5 and is also HI that can do a range of various tasks well, lacks the durability of Karakuri but carries more punch with Spitfire, has a better PH and BS, E/M grenades and good CC skills, as well as DA CCW (and still Specialist Operative). Check out Hollow man with Spitfire with its excellent mobility and cost, check out Mukhtar MSV2 Redfury with its extreme mods stacking and firepower, then you would get an understanding that the real situation is nowhere nearly as unfair as you built it to be.

    While Xeodrons are clearly better TAGs than Geckos, you could probably make a similar comparison for them as we did before. The main point still being: they are slow, weak and not performing well for the points you pay. They can be played, but it's very, very suboptimal, and since ITS tournaments are a lot about min-maxing your lists, you'd rarely see them there.

    It does get personal when you use expressions like "This is either disingenuous or stupid on your part" or "Well, sure if, you use the Karakuri like an idiot, as you described, you're going to lose". Your behaviour is toxic and that kind of attitude of yours is not how you do reasonable discussions, provided you want to get to some result out of it rather than simply reassure your ego. Please consider your choice of words more carefully.
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    While I'm not sure I'm persuaded by all @Firellon's arguments, the above post gets my "like x100" for two reasons:

    1) Citing sources! Yes! Infinity strategic writing would benefit so much from more reference to existing strategic writing. This is how we build a body of theory, by engaging with and building on existing theory.

    2) This:

     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think the Gecko is a fantastic comparison among the TAGs, honestly, and I don't quite see how a Xeodron needs "fixing" (at least in comparison to Mowang, Boyg, Gamma, Yan Huo, or Az'rail).
    If shot at with normal or nanotech ammo, the Gecko is slightly harder to shift, slightly hardet to hide, slightly harder to dodge, slihtly more annoying to flip switches with and a bit more expensive - the main difference is when hit by exotic ammo. Neither of these two will fill the roles of any other main TAG as they lack the mobility, gunnery, or ARM/shenaniganery so you're actually looking at fairly similar combat roles - being a mobile brick while more competent units punches your opponent.

    I don't think anyone would lose honour in conceding that the Gecko looks unfavoured in this comparison, nor that the way Total Immunity currently works makes Karakuri a bit too good for their points. On the other hand, JSA doesn't have Kriza-levels of shooting and Ikari can't link their Karakuri while Nomads don't quite lavk for units to fill this role and more so it's a bit more complex than a straight comparison.

    Will Total Immunity retain the "select the best ARM/BTS" effect? We'll see. Will Karakuri get nerfed slightly down to ARM/BTA 3/3? We'll see. Will Geckos get something to make their points or performance to be a bit more on par with the other non-Kriza S5? We'll, again, see.

    What's the point of this thread again?
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    For what it's worth, going by @Ieldin Soecr's ITS analysis for 2019:

    Generic Nomads made up about 4% of submitted lists, and only 5% of those lists contained a Gecko. So in any given tournament game, you've got around 0.2% chance of facing a generic Nomad list including a Gecko.
    Geckos are about three times as popular in Corregidor (14.6%), but as Corregidor only made up about 2.6% of lists, that's still only around 0.4% chance of facing a Corregidor list including a Gecko.

    In total, that's around 0.6% per tournament game, or facing them once every 170 or so games. Statistically, that's about the same as playing a three-round tournament every weekend for a whole year, and facing Geckos once.

    Xeodrons are fractionally more common in Onyx than Geckos are in Corregidor, but much less popular in generic Combined than Geckos (waaaaaay too much competition from EI Aspect units etc.), and are on around 0.43% per game/once every 230 or so games.

    Kamau, for a comparison to a very popular unit, are going to turn up about every 20 games, between Varuna and generic PanO.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    To be frank, that's kind of pointless if the sources themselves are wrong.

    Welp, if someone's making authoritative statements about ITS play, but then dodges the question when asked about whether or not they play ITS and cites a bunch of other people's writings on the topic, it's clear what's going on. There's a lot of people who like to talk authoritatively about Infinity on here who don't really play.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Anecdotally, I've seen Geckos across the table much more. Regardless, if something is hitting the table in about 15% of Corregidor lists, it's at least *viable.* I've seen more Geckos in my last ten games than Xeodrons, so it's a reality for me no matter how much @Firellon wants to try to move the goalposts; I doubt it's a reality for him since he doesn't appear to play ITS.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You kicked it off with the "if your plan relies on passing a bunch of armor rolls"... business. Your behavior (trying to assume a position of authority about something you aren't actually involved int) is self-aggrandizing. If we want to call that "toxic," whatever.

    The points you're bringing to the discussion are inherently unreasonable because they're based on ideas that are in contravention to the facts.
     
  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Uh huh. Well, we can each decide for ourselves whose opinions we respect more: @daboarder 's, @Vaulsc 's, and @Section9 's, or... yours.
     
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  16. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Thanks a lot!
    Now, we have pretty solid facts based on thousands of games, and there is a reason to say that Geckos and, to some extent, Xeodrons are not that popular. Karakuris, by the way, are also only seen in 22,8% lists of JSA and 28,4% Ikari lists, which I find a bit surprising, but still believable (the models are outdated, the unit itself has a very niche role- although I personally like them enough to pick one in my every list).

    What it also tells us is that different metas exist and it's perfectly normal for me to never see a Gecko on a tournament, provided there are not too many Corregidor or elite LI-type lists in general around. And vice versa, for @Hecaton, it could be perfectly normal to see them often. What I would rather rely on is not how much did we see them in our personal experience, but what is their presence overall, what is the general opinion of the community on those units - this way we can be more objective and unbiased.

    Thanks a lot as well for not taking sides and trying to bring out more of a compromise for us.
    Glad to hear the idea of "viewing units in the context of their factions", too, since it allows to forgive certain units for being a bit overpowered or underpowered, for their corresponding factions do not suddenly get to the ITS tops just because of them. JSA still remains below 1:1 Win:Lose ratio, and that's easy to explain - a severe lack of reliable long-range gunfighting, pretty bad cheerleaders (Keisotsus being one of the worst line infantries in the whole game), reliance on dicey close combat and paying through the nose for it even if not really using it.
    That makes Karakuris way more acceptable than if they would appear in Dahshat, Varuna or Shasvastii, for example, since those are already super-powerful.

    I can accept Total Immunity being a bit nerfed or Karakuris being a bit more expensive, but honestly do not think they break the game anyhow considering in which factions they are available. Would gladly see Geckos or Xeodrons buffed, so they would see more play and would be a bit more compelling to take in general.

    Finally, answering your question about the point of the thread - well, we are exploring the changed total immunity rule and trying to figure out what's good and what's bad about it. Got deviated recently with blame on both sides, I suppose, and we probably should get back to discussing what kind of changes we would like for TI in N4. Let's just do so without bashing one specific strong yet not overpowered unit, shall we? :)

    What, like all of them? I'm afraid you have to bring a lot of proofs for that to happen.
    @daboarder's post is one of the sticky threads in Panoceania forum, he himself being an active member of the community and promoter of the armoured tactics, be it HI-based or TAG-based;
    @Vaulsc is regularly posting analysis for different factions and battle reports of all sorts, hosting two Tabletop ITS Leagues and now a big infinity campaign going;
    @Section9 is another well-known and active community member, his opinion being respected (you can simply check how many likes his posts get)

    Look, you've said you don't trust me or my opinion due to me not having enough ITS rankings.
    So I brought up other people's opinions, all well-known around here, to prove my point without using my own authority, as simple as that.
    Also, thanks to @ijw 's kindly providing actual stats, there are facts backing up my opinion about Geckos and Xeodrons.
    After that point, my own rank stopped meaning anything, as I stopped using it as proof in itself.

    If you're interested in me personally - I do play ITS, perhaps a bit less regularly since Coronavirus came in.
    My best result so far was to get to the 3rd place on a German Satellite Furor Teutonicus in 2019, using Military Orders.
    It's not a lot, sure, but I believe, is still something worth considering :)

    While I believe you've seen a lot of Geckos in your meta, out of all 28 Corregidor units Gecko's placed №21, which must mean it's a pretty unpopular pick. I've listed the reasons why it's not chosen more often in my previous post, @Mahtamori pointed out their sole role as a mobile brick and I couldn't agree more with that. Geckos don't do much more than that, unlike Karakuris who can also be button-pushers or an ARO remover of sorts, under the right circumstances. Geckos need to be buffed in this comparison first and foremost, for they don't do well for their price range. And as you've mentioned yourself, it's not even the goal of that post - neither it is to nerf Karakuris specifically. Instead, it's to come to a conclusion about what we want from TI in the future.

    Won't indulge in a blame game, sorry. I did not mean you specifically with that saying about the plan, and I apologise if it hurt you, that was not my intent. Otherwise, I believe it's still very valid. Infinity is not a game about winning armour rolls, it's about winning FtF and completing missions. Would you disagree?

    Speaking of authorities - it does not really matter for me who is right as long as we can come to an agreement on the fact-based truth and have a meaningful conversation. Does it for you?

    Could you provide some examples, please?
    I'm trying to be objective here and would certainly benefit from you pointing out where my ideas are in direct contravention to the facts.
    Thanks.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If someone references a study with poor methodology, that leaves the question still... well, in question. If it's a matter of trusting opinions, I know people are just going to trust whoever. Like trusting Mayacast on rules... that'll get you in trouble lol.

    @Firellon A great example of how your points are unreasonable is that you dismissed the idea that Karakuris were more efficient for a similar role than Geckos with "well the Gecko sucks so that's not fair, now imma pretend that a Karakuri should be compared to a Tikbalang because that totally makes sense guys" when it's run in a significant percentage of Corregidor lists in ITS. It's moving the goalposts, and I just can't take it seriously. I initially talked about comparing Karakuris to light TAGs like the Gecko, and you started talking about "proper TAGs" like it was a distinction you had the right to make.

    Cheap warbands with template weapons are not particularly scary for Karakuris unless they can close to melee range; you can always fail two armor rolls against a chain rifle and die (very little is for sure in Infinity) but you can also tank many of them and kill the warbands in retaliation.

    You also do your best to twist yourself into knots trying to avoid admitting that hacking is more of a threat to TAGs than Karakuris (and E/M definitely is).
     
  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    geckos are one of the worst TAGs in the game. In years, I only saw them in tournaments a few times, and mainly during Tagline (or in my chunky lists). Geckos are a big HI, most nomad players would suggest to think of them as oversised HI, and to use them as Hi. So in that regard, geckos are a good comparison to tough HI in my opinion.

    Is it a good comparison against karakuris? I don't think so. Karakuris got the best buff from T.I without much cost (yes, they paid for it... so did the chimera, and I think anybody will think of her as beign as problematic as karakuris are). One of the few rule changes in the edition. On the other side, geckos got a no real revision when CJC was checked (only their fireteam options were changed). They are like from different editions, so comparing them now is a waste of time. So if we want to make comparisons anyway, why compare a good unit against a not so good one?

    But that can also be said about karakuris. They are HI, a tough one, and with specialist options. They fullfill a role that other HI can also fulfill, but at a higher cost. And that is what I think could be a good debate.
     
    A Mão Esquerda and Firellon like this.
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Doh! That's per list, not per player, so your chances of facing a Gecko in a tournament game are about half that. So if you play a three-round tournament every week, you'll face Geckos roughly once every two years. Obviously if there are Nomad/Corregidor players in your meta that's going to be different, but that's the base average.
     
    Firellon likes this.
  20. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    the anaconda begs to differ :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
     
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