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"Whirlwind" VS "Saved by the bell"

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Kilroy, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Kilroy

    Kilroy Active Member

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    Had this wierd situation tonight.
    Shona uses "Whirlwind" and among those involved is Axl.
    Axl answers with the tactic card "Saved by the bell".

    Whirlwind says: Inflict 1:4:to each enemy within range :L:1-2.
    Saved by the bell says: this card can be played during the declaration of an action in which Axl Steel is the target.

    Is Axl considered a target in an action that afflicts more than a character? Can he use Saved by the bell to ignore the effects of Whirlwind? If he can, will the other possible characters in :L: 1-2 suffer the effects and take the 1:4: or will the Whirlwind action be cancelled for everyone?
    Thanks
     
  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    It is explicitly an Action.

    Thus it can be entirely prevented by "Saved by the Bell".

    No effect of any kind.
     
  3. Kelthret

    Kelthret Usuario

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    I'm not sure Whirlwind needs a target to be used. I doesn't have range or vision requirements.
    If the action doesn't need a target, Axel couldn't use Saved by the bell since he isn't being targeted.
    If it indeeds needs a target, i'd say you could use the card if Axel was the main target of the action, and not just collateral damage, just as you couldn't cancel Kozmo's supernova if he's attacking someone else, even if it ends up burning Axel.
     
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  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Any model affected by an Action is a Target. Is it, @AdmiralJCJF ?
     
  5. Kilroy

    Kilroy Active Member

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    Wow, that seems REALLY good. He could neutralize actions like Frostbite or Deus Vult!
    Actually, Whirlwind has a range and requires line of sight, as it's :L:1-2.
    [​IMG]
    The key element seems that everyone involved in an action becomes a target. Axl still could not neutralize actions that end up involving him due to a switch (D/Buffer, for instance) since Saved by the bell can be used "after the declaration of an action and not "after the roll".
    Is that correct?
    Curiously enough, he could use Saved by the bell to prevent the Bounce at no cost switched by Koorie Queen's Boomerang.
     
    #5 Kilroy, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    That was my thinking.

    But, now that I look at it more closely my intuitive response may have been wrong.

    I think we might need @-V- to help us with this one.
     
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  7. Kelthret

    Kelthret Usuario

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    That's the range and LoS of the effect, not the one of the action, that should be next to the name, as with every action in the game that has it. This is important, cause it means it's not affected by changes in the range of the action such as Lunah's Holo Sight.
    You could even argue that declaring Whirlwind when no one is around is a valid declaration, the action just has no effect.
     
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  8. rag1n

    rag1n Well-Known Member
    Aristeia! Warcor

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    Whirlwind does not have a range requirement in order to use the ability

    It is the effects of the ability that has a range requirement
     
  9. Zenon

    Zenon Well-Known Member
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    It may also be pedantic, but Saved By the Bell does say *the* target, and not *a* target.
    It would also seem that the timing of the card doesn't match. You can't play it "during the declaration", so... no?
     
  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Whirlwind lets you use an Action for no Action Points.

    It does NOT allow you to do that Action without following the usual process.

    So, yes, there IS a "declaration" for the Whirlwind.
     
  11. rag1n

    rag1n Well-Known Member
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    There is a declaration for whirlwind but at the time of the declaration there is no target.

    There is only a taget after rolling dice (and get switches/a success)

    Axl steel is not the target at the time whirwind is declared.
     
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  12. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    And that's right: Axl must be selected as the Target of an Action to play "Saved by the Bell". When Shona performs Whirlwind she is selecting no Target at all. Imagine her waving about her big sword with the intention to hurt as many Enemies as she can, but not a specific one.

    This question will be published next week in the FAQ.

    :wink:
     
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  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Awesome!

    So it would, likewise, not function to prevent "Deus Vult!" from Padre Mendoza and similar abilities.

    Is that correct?
     
    #13 AdmiralJCJF, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  14. rag1n

    rag1n Well-Known Member
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    Incorrect.

    upload_2020-2-4_8-44-37.png

    In the case of Deus Vult there is a clear range requirement to the target. It's next to the :.::.::.:. If Axl were the target then he could cancel Deus Vult

    Whirlwind has no range requirement (no :L: next to the dice)
     
  15. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    That's right. :thinking_face: (Deus Vult! and Frostbite should be re-written)
     
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  16. rag1n

    rag1n Well-Known Member
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    I'm glad I interpret some things correctly! eh!
     
  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Right, so it's the presence of a range only next to the dice and has nothing to do with the language?
     
  18. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    The rule: :L:
    The intention: language.

    We must review all the texts/profiles/cards to make sure language and rules work together. Sometimes it can be done by FAQ, sometimes not and we need some extra effort. So your constructive feedback is so important to us.

    :wink:
     
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  19. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    But Whirlwind also has :L:, it's just positioned differently.

    So that's the only thing which means that one "technically" targets while the other doesn't?
     
  20. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    We use :L: in Effects text when we need to express "a Range and Line of Sight". As these concepts are in the main rules, it's more comfortable to do it this way (and let us reduce text length).

    When we use :L: in an Action entry is another requirement, like AP cost. And it means that you need to declare a valid Target within that Range (with or without LoS, you know).

    Remember the Requirements step when performing an Action:
    Maybe, in the future, we'll update Main Rules to get them reviewed.

    :wink:
     
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