Thanks to the new Krakot girl we now have a question: do Chest Mines self-detonate when activating V: Dogged?
Given that Explode doesn't trigger when a model goes dogged. I'd be inclined to say that ChestMines in CC work the same way.
Considering both Metachemistry 1 and 2 have Dogged as a possible result, we already had this one. My personal interpretation is that V2: Dogged replaces the Unconscious state and that the self-detonation only happens if the trooper actually fully enters the Unconscious state.
Can you elaborate? I couldn't find this via search, and if it was answered on the old forums.. well, you know.
Hmm, I think I disagree... let's see if there's anything I missed. Chest Mines: underlined for emphasis. In Dogged: Nothing above indicates to me that they wouldn't fire off.
It's somewhat ambiguous, but I would play it the same as Dogged + Explode. I.e. if you go dogged, you don't properly enter the Unconscious state, so the detonation won't trigger. If that doesn't convince you, please note that coup de grace uses similar wording, and it is known that you cannot use that to kill enemy models that are in dogged or NWI states. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coup_de_Grace
I dunno. Coup de Grace specifically mentions the Unconscious marker (which is not placed in Dogged/NWI). The Dogged + Explode is - indeed - ambiguous, but it's also the better argument, if not conclusive. It's only implied that a Dogged trooper won't explode because the reminder box seems to indicate that Dogged + #not'Sploded is a thing that can exist. EDIT: spaced the two points out more clearly.
Wording on Chest Mine Self Detonation in CC. This effect will only apply if the bearer is engaged in CC. If the bearer of the Chest Mines falls Unconscious while engaged in CC, each unconsumed Chest Mine will detonate at the end of the Order in which the bearer falls into said state. Self Detonation affects all enemy troopers in base to base contact with its bearer. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Chest_Mines Wording on Explode L1 At the end of the Order in which the user entered the Unconscious state, place a Circular Template centered on the user's base. This Circular Template indicates the Area of Effect of the explosion. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Explode We know for sure that Explode doesn't trigger on Dogged. I would assume the ruling would be the same.
Are you referring to the "Remember" box, or was there a ruling on the old forum that didn't make it into an FAQ (there were no FAQ entries about this on either the Dogged page or the Explode page)? If it's the former, then as I said before: the box only implies (strongly, I'll concede) that Dogged doesn't trigger explode, but then... why leave it off of the chest mine skill? Was that deliberate, or is it an oversight? Yet another thing I'd love to see cleaned up in N4... NO MORE NEW RULES OR EXCEPTIONS INSIDE REMINDER BOXES!!! If it's the latter, then that should probably make it into an FAQ/errata to make it more permanent. Said FAQ/errata should also address chest mines at the same time.
Well, the 'Dogged' state is a special form of the Unconscious state. The only thing one can argue, I guess, is that the rules for Chest Mines talk about falling unconscious, instead of just entering the state, which does not happen with NWI or Dogged...
Replying to both. As much as I'd love it that Dogged gave a clear answer and with preference to my above answer, I must point out that in case of Explode L1 there is a requirement for Explode L1 which is with added italic bold emphasis The user must be in the Unconscious state for this Special Skill to activate.
I can offer no link to a solution, my comment was only made referring to that this situation is not new. It should have come up a few times by now since both Metachemistry L1 and L2 has 20% chance of offering abilities that makes a normal Krakot Renegade have a skill set that mimics this, so there should be some people who could offer insights into how local metas have solved it. Or it might just be that people forget that this might happen and haven't attempted to activate the Chest Mines when entering Dogged or NWI with their Krakpots.
Hope this means that this question will get more attention and official answer will be provided. And maybe N4 won't have so many rules with dubious wording. Really, the most confusing part about Dogged is that the rules state that it is some special kind of Unconscious, while it is a completely different state that does have some similarities to Unconscious.
@n21lv : no problem, could the people who participate to the discussion check my summary Original topic : https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/chest-mines-self-detonation-v-dogged.35991/#post-313097 Situation : a krakot have Chest Mine and the dogged skill, when does the chest mine ability "Self Detonation in CC." will detonate Answer : 1 : Only if the Krakot fall in the unconscious state 2 : Dogged is a special form of unconscious so the chest mine will self-detonate both when reaching unconscious and dogged state
I don't think the point of contention is the word "fall" since that also appears in the Dogged skill: "To activate the state, the player must announce the trooper uses Dogged when he falls Unconscious." I think it mostly comes down to whether the remember box from Explode...: "If the user enters the Dead state directly due to a Special Skill (such as V: Dogged), a Special Ammunition (such as Shock) or because he suffered the loss of more Wounds than his current Attribute during a single Order, then he does not Explode." ...which implies that you cannot have used Explode when going into Dogged (and it seems everyone plays this way), extends to Chest Mines.
Sure, but we would like things stated directly in all places where the interactions happen, not having to imply and extrapolate things. Advantage of an online rulebook!
All good, however I would add a strict distinction between the Unconscious and Dogged states, i.e. "Only if the Krakot enters the Unconscious state (and not Dogged)" While I myself am on the "the Chest Mine does not explode" side of the argument, I am not sure the part of the Explode rules you quoted leads to this conclusion. Chest Mines Self-Detonation in CC triggers when trooper falls Unconscious (emphasis mine, because nowhere in the rules we see a definition of falling Unconscious). Activating V: Dogged will only make the trooper Dead at the end of the current Turn, while Chest Mines self-detonate at the end of the Order the trooper fell Unconscious. I may be wrong, but I would say this is not a valid argument for this premise.
While it may not seem like it due to the effects, Dogged is absolutely the "unconscious state" with two modifications: removal of the Null label (can now use orders and perform skills) and goes straight to dead at the end of the turn. "The Unconscious state of troopers using the Special Skill Dogged has the following special rules:" Note that this is required for NWI (a very similar skill in many respects) so that you can actually doctor up an NWI unit, since the requirement is to be in base contact with a trooper in the unconscious state. Remember that chest mines don't fire if the user goes straight to dead, only unconscious. So the consequences of a ruling here are whether or not a Krakot (and Kendrat) can use their chest mines and V:Dogged at the same time, or if there must be a choice: Do I fall unconscious and fire the rest of my mines or do I go V:Dogged and keep them?
