Yes, and going face to face with a smoke grenade for a given target can influence whether an attack is successful for that target.
I believe this conversation has come up before as i argued the position that you are, right now @Hecaton . I still believe that myrm B can defend himself (and only himself) with smoke dodge via blocking the attacking between the enemy model and myrm A. I disagreed with the individuals points then (that are parallels to those now) and personally believe you can.
To be able to use a Smoke based BS Attack to block an incoming attack, it is mandatory to block the LoF between the two models (attacker and smoker). If there is no LoF like in this case, because a model is a secondary target under a legally-placed template, there is no LoF to interrupt. And remember that regardless of how any models can throw smokes ammo, a model can prevent only attacks on himself.
I agree with this, the other way of viewing it (that an Impact template against secondary targets have no LOF requirement) is in my opinion backwards thinking and retaining way too much from N2 rules that are simply not supported by N3. Under N3 it is the template that determines who are affected by an attack, not whether they are primary or secondary target as the primary target only serves to determine MODs used against everyone under the template.
We have to stretch the wording to go either way because this interaction isn’t spelled out decisively enough.
It's not stretching it much with my interpretation, tbh. See below, emphasis added. If Myrm B can't smoke against an impact template, then Myrm A can't either http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Effects Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment. The other interpretation requires a lot of extra deductions and reasoning that's not actually written in the rules regarding LOF from Blast Focus which is used to determine if a model is considered to be in Total Cover or not, but most importantly it involves a lot of assumptions about the primary target that simply doesn't exist in the rules.
https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/using-smoke-to-protect-against-blast-damage.26006/ I agree with you but we had a long discussion on this and people argued that a secondary target could save its ass if it could use its smoke to block LoF to the main target We never had a rulling on this so unless CB come and give us one we will likely end up with the same reslts That's the first question in the unsolved question thread (and the one who push me to open the thread). The original thread is here : https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/using-smoke-to-protect-against-blast-damage.26006/
I don't think B can save himself. Smoke dodge can only defend himself, not other models; if A is hitted B will be hit by a template attack (which cannot be stopped with a smoke dodge) and B cannot protect A. A can use the smoke dodge for being targeted by an attack that needs LoF (assuming the attacker have no MSV2).
It is a little different... B is hit if any result is a success, even if it is beaten by A. Because against B it is a normal roll. (if we suppose right that B cannot use smoke to avoid it)
Hello, I thinks this case is one of the "rule problems" when we overthink on them. In time to time it happends, and that is why we should debate about it, in order to catch an understanding of how the rule works in the abscen of FAQ, so most of the "players communitity" do the same. If we read "special dodge" in the "smoke ammo" rules, it could be possible unterstand the @Hecaton arguments. <<... from de wiki... Spoiler: PartialRuleSmoke Smoke Special Ammunition Smoke Special Ammunition is a non-lethal ammunition used to block enemy lines of fire, allowing allied forces to advance and maneuver. This type of ammunition is governed by special rules. Category Exotic. Effects Smoke Special Ammunition generates a Zero Visibility Zone (see: Special Terrain, Visibility Conditions) the size of a Circular Template and with infinite height. The Smoke Template remains on the table until the end of the Player Turn in which it was placed. Smoke Special Ammunition is a non-offensive ammunition, so it does not require an enemy—or, in fact, any trooper at all—as a target, and can be thrown at any point on the table. Shooting or throwing Smoke Special Ammunition is a Special Dodge. Critical hits with Smoke Special Ammunition have no additional effect. Smoke and Special Dodge Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed. Smoke has the special property of being able to stop an Attack in the same Order it was declared. For this reason, using this Special Ammunition is a Special Dodge. Spoiler: moreSmokeRule However, a trooper who throws Smoke in ARO cannot move up to 2 inches the way a normal Dodge would allow. Bear in mind that Special Dodge and the Dodge Skill are different things with different rules. Smoke and Template Weapons The fact that using Smoke is a Special Dodge affects the rules governing Template Weapons in two separate ways: When, as part of an Order or ARO, the trooper throwing Smoke is facing off against several enemies, his Roll is used against all eligible Face to Face AttackRolls, but he will need to win every single Face to Face Roll in order to leave the Smoke Template on the table. Enemies affected by the Area of Effect of the Smoke Template that declare Dodge as an ARO to abandon said Area of Effect make a Normal Roll and not a Face to Face Roll against the Smoke-throwing trooper. "more rules LoF" Spoiler: Lof Line of Fire Line of Fire (LoF) is the criterion by which players determine whether a troop can see its target (another model, a Marker, etc.). In Infinity, being able to draw LoF is a requisite for performing BS Attacks and many other Common and Special Skills (Discover, Dodge...). Spoiler: template BS Weapons and Equipment that use an Area of Effect Template affect not only the target enemy, but also an area of the game table determined by the size of the Template. ... Template Weapons, Scenery Items, and Total Cover The presence of scenery items on the game table can change a Template's Area of Effect as shown in the graphic examples. Each Template has a Blast Focus to determine if nearby scenery protects a trooper from the Template's effects. If LoF can be drawn from the Blast Focus to the trooper, then that trooper is affected by the Template. However, if the LoF cannot be drawn due to the presence of a piece of scenery, then the trooper is considered to be in Total Cover and is not affected by the Template. The Blast Focus is at the center of the Circular Template and at the narrow end of the Teardrop Templates. The Blast Focus can only draw LoF inside the Area of Effect of the Template. Spoiler: Six Sense SIXTH SENSE LEVEL 2 AUTOMATIC SKILL Optional. REQUIREMENTS In order to use Sixth Sense L2, the user must be the target of an Attack. EFFECTS Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user. Spoiler >> Spoiler: Six Sense Spoiler If we read all this rules slowly and we do RAW, then I think it could be possible. SSL2 allow the Myrmidon B respond to an attack even if he hasn't LoF, as he don't need to trace LoF to the "blast launcher" (who is targeting Myrmi A) only LoF to one position in the table, he could launch smoke. Then, if we read the effects of the special smoke dodge, the myrmidon B will complain all of them: need of LoF (check), need to roll (check) need to blocked the LoF to the target, Myrmydon A, so... (check). Only because of this Myrmidon B could do use "special smoke dodge" in order to try avoid the blast. Yes, it sounds a little "odd", but according to the rules in a hard RAW, somebody could understand this and it will have a good point to apply and arguing in this way. It said this I want to clarify I really don't believe this will the Corvus intention or whast the rules works, but I understand when and how some player could reach this conclusion and probably he will be not wrong. Best regards!!
Yep, I explained myself badly; versus B the attack is a normal roll and B cannot do anything to stop that normal roll for hitting with smoke. Also in this case SSL2 RAI (360 visor) wouldn't do anything; but that's another separate issue.
I think you guys need to explain how A can avoid being hit by the template using smoke if, and I'm para-quoting actual rules here, A and B are equally affected by the template.
For the main target, a direct template attack is the same as any BS attack : if you win the face to face, you don't take damage. So if A win his face to face (Smoke bs attack vs HRL bs attack), he avoid damage) The specific rules regarding template only affect secondary target Edit : impact template weapon not direct
How I see it: A can't avoid the template from being placed if the attacker pass his normal roll; but if he can beat him in a FtF, he can avoid being hit. A is being targeted by an attack which needs LoF, so blocking the LoF with a smoke grenade should be an option for him to do that FtF roll, as good as a BS attack or a dodge. Why gaining a BS FtF roll would make him suddenly immune to that template? This case is a bit counterintuitive, that's all. B on the other hand is being affected by a template, LoF has nothing to do with being hit
You're going to need to reinforce that with quotes from the rules, I think. The template weapon rules for N3 do not seem to agree with you. The rules do not make this distinction for the main target and the one place where the rules mention "other targets" the rules refer to "the attack" referring to the same attack as the main target suffers.
Revising the rules it's interesting As you say there is no difference between the main target and the other targets. However when we go to the rules of smoke dodge: The impact template attack fulfill these requisites versus A, so I'd say the smoke dodge would be legal to use for A. However for B the LoF requisite isn't fulfilled (he isn't the target of the attack), so I'd argue that B cannot use the smoke dodge.
Yet, it's the same attack, and that attack requires LOF and both A and B are evaluated if they are affected by it by checking the position of the template. Would the enemy be able to attack B by placing a template on A if that enemy had no LOF to A?
You need LoF on the main target to hit it. You don't need LoF on the secondary target to hit them. Also, all modifiers are based on the main target. The secondary target are irrelevant here (example : yes I hit your Achilles in cover by shooting your out of cover proxy on 18's) Also, critical on the attack roll only applies to the main target I call that big differences. General impact template case (that I miswrite as direct template in my previous post) : For the main target : - Take the main target modifier ("The attacker must designate a main target, from who all MODs applied to his Roll will be determined. As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template.") - Make roll to hit the main target (opposed roll or not depending on the main target ARO) (The trooper who declared the Attack compares this Roll against each enemy trooper affected by the Template individually. Each enemy trooper affected by the template resolves his Face to Face Roll with the Template user independent of each other; the Face to Face Roll of one affected enemy trooper does not affect the Face to Face Rolls of the others (See the example below).) - Template is placed if the attack is a success ("The Template only applies its effect on each affected trooper if the Attack Roll is successful.") - main target is hit only if it loose face to face Except for the 3rd bullet point this is a perfectly normal bs attack situation, nothing specific in there. That's what I mean, @Mahtamori, in my previous post For secondary target with LoF on the attacker : - if the template was placed : pseudo face to face roll vs attack roll sucess (for BS attack, dodge...) ("As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template".) - if the template was not placed : normal roll (for BS attack, dodge...) For secondary target with LoF on the attacker - if the template was placed : pseudo dodge face to face roll vs attack roll sucess ("As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template".) - if the template was not placed : normal dodge roll If we go to the smoke dodge : For the main target, it's standard BS attack situation => no problem BS attack using the smoke special dodge works For secondary target with LoF on the attacker => They can smoke to block either the LoF between them and the attacker (case a) or between the main target and the attacker (case b). For secondary target without LoF on the attacker => They can smoke to block either the LoF between the main target and the attacker (case b). To me : Case a doesn't allow smoke special dodge to work because : a LoF between the attacker and secondary target is not necessary to hit the secondary target. So blocking said LoF doesn't protect secondary target from damages Rules that support that "Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed." Case b doesn't allow smoke special dodge to work because this LoF is not the one between you and the attacker
No, the template is placed regardless of whether the attack is a success, that's not really debatable from the effects requirements (I have not added emphasis); Place the Template down when you declare the Attack to determine who is affected by that Attack, as that might influence the possible second Short Skill and AROs. I'd like to have any explanation regarding "main target" difference actually reference rules text that makes it clear whether the attack makes a difference between main and secondary target. This is the very core of your claim and this is what you need to back up. I also feel like you need to prove that the primary target isn't suffering two attacks; once for being a primary target and once for being in contact with the template, because I haven't found anywhere where it mentions a distinction between those touched by the template.
The template is placed before the roll to determine ARO, I agree. But he ends up "really" placed on the table and doing effect only if it's a success (rule quote : "The Template only applies its effect on each affected trooper if the Attack Roll is successful.") Please re-read my post, rules quote are in italic. I add them in my first affirmation : You need LoF on the main target to hit it. You don't need LoF on the secondary target to hit them. => Rules quote is complicated Why you need LoF on the main target : "The user of one of these weapons must declare a main valid target, and that target is used as a reference to place the Template." Why you don't for secondary target : "Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment." => being in contact or under the template is the only condition for secondary target byt the main one must be valid => LoF necessary Also, all modifiers are based on the main target. The secondary target are irrelevant here (example : yes I hit your Achilles in cover by shooting your out of cover proxy on 18's) => The attacker must designate a main target, from who all MODs applied to his Roll will be determined. As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template. Also, critical on the attack roll only applies to the main target => FAQ 1.6 : N3 Frequently Asked Question FAQ Version: 1.6, Apr 2019 Q: What happens when a troop rolls a Critical with a Template Weapon that affects more than one troop? A: The main target of the attack suffers the Critical effects of the Special Ammunition, weapon, or rule, for example Normal Ammunition will cause the target to lose one Wound/Structure, bypassing the ARM or BTS Roll. Based on your way of understanding things, if the main target loosed face to face, he would take damages twice (once for being main target, once for being in contact with the template). Do you play it like this ? If yes, please back it up with rules. If no, then you have to agree that the main target only suffers from one attack
