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Using smoke to protect against blast damage

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Say a Devil Dog and his K-9 are moving across open ground, and an enemy with a rocket launcher fires at the K-9. Can the Devil Dog protect himself (and only himself) by throwing smoke such that it obscures the enemy's LoF? I was always under the impression that you could but an opponent I played recently argued the opposite, that since LoF from the center of the template wouldn't be needed, smoke can't protect you.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You'll find that the overwhelming majority of people on these forums considers the attack on the Devil Dog to originate from the explosion's impact point (even though for determining Dodge MODs, the attack originates from the enemy Trooper).

    I do not agree with the majority on this topic and think that it should not matter if the primary target is the K-9 or the Devil Dog for purposes of Smoke 'nades.
     
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  3. Necromancy Black

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    I'm in the camp of the smoke doesn't work.

    This is simply because it doesn't matter if the smoke was there before the shot occurred or not, the Devil Dog would still be impacted by the template. If the shot had been against the Devil Dog then it would matter, as if the smoke had been out before then the opponent would not have LoF to take the shot.

    Also remember the FAQ specifically states that smoke can only be used to dodge by the model throwing the smoke, it doesn't help friendly models in the same order/ARO.
     
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  4. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The general interpretation is the template attack does not require LoF to damage the devil dog, therefore you don't meet the requirements for special smoke dodge.
     
  5. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    LoF is not necessary to be hit by a blast template, so therefore smoke cannot prevent the hit. For example, if the secondary model were already obscured by smoke, it would still be hit if the primary target were exposed.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    To clarify, I'm not talking about throwing smoke in between the primary target and the smoke user, but between the primary target and the attacker. So you're blocking the "requires LoF" part of it that way. Seems to make sense, for the same reason you could fire a gun back and win the FtF roll.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Yes,

    The attack is still Vs the Devil Dog from the firer, the Smoke Special Dodge clause will kick in
    The template is irrelevant because the Attack "BS Attack" requires LOF. and that requirement is the trigger clause for the special dodge


    Smoke and Special Dodge
    Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed.

    Smoke has the special property of being able to stop an Attack in the same Order it was declared. For this reason, using this Special Ammunition is a Special Dodge.

    However, a trooper who throws Smoke in ARO cannot move up to 2 inches the way a normal Dodge would allow.

    Bear in mind that Special Dodge and the Dodge Skill are different things with different rules.



    As to the other comments most here are misunderstanding what hecaton is describing.

    And Active Devil Dog team is shot at by an LRL, the "primary" target is the K-9. none of that changes the fact that the Dog itself is being targetted, is a target of the attack and that attack requires LOF.
    Smoke's special dodge kicks if the Dog throws it in the correct place to block the LOF. No different than if the Devil Dog was the primary target. Because thats how impact templates work
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Uh.

    If the smoke was there before the attack, the Heavy Rocket Launcher enemy wouldn't be able to shoot at the K-9
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that it's easy to show that the attack did not require LoF to any secondary target... therefore, the "special dodge" clause is not met for them.

    Main target is at a corner, Friendly Trooper B is an inch behind him behind a wall. If an attack with a circular template (LRL, for example) required LoF to B, he wouldn't be affected. We all know that he his, however. He can dodge, of course... at PH-3 because there is no LoF to the attacker.

    Because of this, though it isn't explicitly stated, I'd say that the only target affected by the attack that required that attack to have LoF is the main target. Thus, "...but only if those Attacks require LoF..." is not satisfied for any secondary target.

    Now, I believe those that argue that this is possible are essentially saying, "it is an attack, and that attack required LoF on something" to justify their position, and I agree that it is possible to read it that way... but I think that's stretching the wording even more than I am. I will be genuinely shocked if CB came out in favor of that interpretation.

    Lastly, as has been noted, it's just plain ridiculous that you can throw smoke to avoid being hit by an explosion... It's fairly simple: if having the smoke already down wouldn't affect the results, then you can't "special dodge" (MAN, I hate that phrase!!) with smoke.

    They're G:Sync, not attached at the hip ;).
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What? Did you read the stuff I was quoting that was claiming that it wouldn't make a difference if the K-9 was standing in smoke or not as far as the attack was concerned?

    Also, it's easy to show that the attack with the HRL does, in fact, require LOF. It's right there. In BS Attack's labels. And throwing smoke to avoid an explosion is exactly what's happening when you're the main target.

    P.s. and you can't throw smoke to utilise Special Dodge if you can't see your opponent, because you need LOF to declare BS Attack, so taking an example where you're hit around a corner doesn't make sense.
     
    #10 Mahtamori, Nov 25, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Then that falls under the standard FAQ of "can I protect an ally with my smoke" and the answer is no.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Smoke_Special_Ammunition

    Q: Can a miniature throw a Smoke Grenade to protect another figure from an attack?
    A: No. In a similar way to a Dodge, the Special Dodge provided by throwing a Smoke Grenade can only protect the throwing trooper.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't. The K-9 and that FAQ are both completely irrelevant.

    DDog's trowing smoke between the enemy and the target of the attack to protect himself, not the K-9
     
  13. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I have argued this exact position of allowing the smoke ftf before and didn't feel there was compelling enough reason to make it false, although many disagreed. The only piece that was stated on why it was wrong was the faq on saving your friend, but you are throwing smoke between main target and attacker not to save the main target but provide a ftf as a secondary target.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @kinginyellow yup. No one's arguing the Devil Dog can protect the K-9 with the smoke, just himself.
     
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  15. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I support the belief that smoking as a secondary target can allow you to become a ftf. I just commented that I have voiced that same belief in previous threads and the faq was the argument against it. Only one person in this thread so far has mentioned the faq as a reason why you cant so far. And I agree with your statement on why it is not a applicable reason.
     
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  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    An impact template is a declared attack vs every trooper hit by the template.
     
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  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    This isnt even close to how impact templates work. They are attacks vs all troops hit by the template. And while lof may be drawn from the blast for secondary targets. Lof is still required.

    They dont nukethrough walls like a jammer
     
  18. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Ah, you're trying to make a secondary target get an FtF by blocking the shot to the primary target via smoke. That was not clear to me from how you presented the issue.

    I've never seen it asked quite this way before, but to me it's still too indirect. Secondary targets don't require LoF to be hit, and so this still looks too close to me of trying to violate the spirit of that FAQ and the existing rules of smoke's special dodge attribute. You can only use smoke to block LoF between yourself and the attacker, but since the attacker doesn't need LoF to the model throwing smoke, it becomes a normal roll.
     
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  19. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Having re-read into this, I have changed my opinion.

    Because the impact template creates the opportunity for a face to face roll. Throwing smoke which blocks the attack's lof meets the relatively vaguely worded smoke dodge requirements and allows a face to face to avoid damage.

    This wouldn't help the dog. Who just eats a normal roll though. But I think everyone agrees on that.

    I also think, while at first seems strange, aligns with the way impact templates are designed now with the multiple face to face mechanic.
     
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  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I got the two mixed up when I read your reply. What I was envisioning was a DD dropping smoke in such a way that he would only block LoF from the attacker to him and not to the K-9, while still being less than a blast radius away from said K-9. He could do this by placing the smoke template such that he is at an edge with the rest of the template away from the K-9. Or, really, he could drop it right at his feet as long as he walked through the impact template area on his way to where he is now.

    Yes, it does... against the main target. What I was showing was that LoF was not required against any secondary targets. I will concede to your second point, however.

    I never claimed you could. I just used that as an example clearly showing that LoF was not required against any secondary targets.

    I'm not sure how what I've said contradicts what you've said in any way. But if that's the way you want to interpret it, you still can't use smoke to avoid the attack because LoF from the blast focus in only blocked by total cover, which smoke does not provide:

    • If LoF can be drawn from the Blast Focus to the trooper, then that trooper is affected by the Template. However, if the LoF cannot be drawn due to the presence of a piece of scenery, then the trooper is considered to be in Total Cover and is not affected by the Template.

    This allows the second clause to kick in: "...and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed."

    Again, my main argument is that total cover between the attacker and any secondary target is not enough to stop the template from hitting them (thus showing that LoF is not required to said secondary target)... so how is smoke supposed to?