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What to do if a FAQ ruling is clearly wrong?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hecaton, Jul 8, 2019.

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  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It has to be an attack on your actual person for it to be ad hominem, I have never seen you back down on anything on these forums and I honestly feel harassed by you and your way of arguing.

    And no, I'm not explain anything on the ARM vs BTS thing. I have literally no clue what that is all about and I don't care to dig through the other topics to find out. Here's the definition of a Strawman: "A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent." I don't know where the ARM/BTS thing came from, I don't know what relevance it has on this thread and I really don't care to find out.
     
  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It is an attack on my person. You're not discussing the actual topic at hand. Instead you're focusing on if i ever admit to being mistaken or wrong. Which has no baring on the actual validity of the arguments presented here. The only purpose it can serve is it to imply I'm incorrect here and will not admit to it. Which reflects on my character in a negative way.

    You've just admitted to "literally" having no clue what the other half of my argument is about. So how can you possibly comment on it's relevance or validity to the point I was making?

    You have the nerve to say you feel harassed... LOL.
     
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  3. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    ARM and BTS are at least partially interchangeable with how total immunity let's you choose between them, and the effect of falling the save from a weapon being similar.

    Scenery and Deployable Equipment don't have such a direct equivalence in the rules except when they attempt to make the distinction between the two...

    Basically because the FAQ says so(for now).
     
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  4. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Everyone has the right to feel how they feel. He has the right to feel attacked as much as you do. Perhaps it would help if you both took a breather and came back to discuss things after the heat of the moment has died down.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    By implication, then, a damaged AI Beacon still provides an order.
     
  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    ^ This. ARM/BTS/PH are used as "save rolls", some rules let us change the roll but the effect of failing it is the same, and that's backed up with examples.
    I haven't checked the scenery rules with a lot of detail yet, is there any simmilar examples between Deployables and scenery items? Any part of the rules where they are clearly used interchangeably?
     
  7. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    I try to understand, what is going on here... :thinking_face:

    @Ginrei , sometimes you leave the visible area (written rules) and move towards another visible area (of written rules). The connection you are using to move between these rulebound arguments is some kind of logical backdoor, which connects your arguments. That connection is invisible for many users. They cannot follow you and are frustrated, because the way you present your arguments seems to be like the hedgehog, who wins the race against the hare by "teleporting" his double on the other side of the field. Some may seem to see your conclusions (@Ogid is obviously capable of doing so), but sometimes they do not agree. In this case, the topic is split into two topics: The original question about an ambiguous rule and the follow-up questions "How much of a connection between two system parts exists?" and "Is it allowed to be used to solve the first question?". These "side-tracks" are - of course - also not anticipated and make it look like your are starting new topics. This seem to enrage some users, because from their point of view the first question has already been answered, because they are not searching for the structure, that leads to certain conclusions, they are only searching for the answer alone. This settles things for almost everyone. Every question after "this is "settled"" is perceived as destabilizing, unnecessary questioning of rules and of rule-authorities. I guess, that is the reason, why things tend to become personal.

    I can see, why you become frustrated - while you are trying to find deeper answers in the system, people accuse you of destructive behaviour, ignore your arguments and assume bad intentions and try to stop or sabotage your endeavour. And I can see, why some of the others become frustrated, too - they provide you with the answers, that you appear to have asked for and these answers are absolutely satisfying for them. And you do not (cannot) accept those answers, because it is not, what you have asked for... but that, they do not know. They just see you "ignoring" the obvious solution and you seem to keep pushing - for the sake of discussion.

    Maybe I am wrong. I don't mean any disrespect. I just thought of a possible misunderstanding. Sorry, if I misrepresented intentions or opinions.
    But maybe it helps to let those who seek meta-answers, seek them in peace.
     
  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe BTS and ARM rolls are clearly used interchangeably within the rules. Are there examples of that? This is the situation I was eluding to:

    A Total Immunity trooper gets hit by a Combi Rifle (normal ammo). The trooper chooses to make a BTS roll and fails. Normal Ammo states:
    • Each ARM Roll failed against Normal (N) Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute.
    So because the trooper failed a BTS roll and not an ARM roll they don't lose a wound/STR. The game could continue with this outcome. Players don't accept this and play the rolls as interchangeable. That way, the trooper failing the BTS roll still takes a wound.

    Now in this case we have an Imetron reduced to 0 STR and entering the Damaged state. According to the rules the Imetron still generates an Order. The game could continue with this outcome. Players don't accept this and play equipment and scenery as interchangeable. That way, Imetrons don't generate Orders while Damaged. Some might argue they are not interchanging these but that's not correct. The rules preventing equipment from functioning while Damaged pertains only to scenery items.

    I accept these player made changes because they make sense and are consistent.

    However, the FAQ changes this. Choosing to follow the FAQ while simultaneously choosing not to follow the effects of Damaged state is inconsistent and arbitrary. Which leads me to ARM/BTS rolls. If someone is going to arbitrarily decide how to apply the Damaged state, I no longer want to play by these new player made rules. Back to RAW for both.
    Everyone does have the right to feel how they feel. I'm just criticizing him for feeling that way because ironically I think it should be me that feels that way.
    I agree with your assessment for the most part. I also know I can do a poor job spelling out that connection at times. But I should not be responsible for other people jumping to incorrect conclusions and assumptions. If someone wants to speak about my statements or has any doubts about what they mean... I think it's understandable they ask questions to clear things up.

    I encounter statements here all the time that are unclear in their meaning. So I typically ask questions to better communicate or spell out my explanation so it's clear what I'm referring to. I'm well aware this process can lead to others frustration lol. But I'll ask you honestly, how much should I be bending my ways so I don't upset others? Should a scientist change their method of examination and discussion with another scientist simply because they're in a room full of people who can hear them. A room with their own opinions and approach based on what they understand? It is slightly different in my case as I'm not speaking to myself obviously.

    I can either ignore the majority of people in the room save a select few, or try my best to communicate with those who comment on what I have to say. It's not easy and doesn't always go well. But I don't believe I abuse others that haven't already come out swinging at me.
     
    #68 Ginrei, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  9. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    Don't bend. It wasn't my intention to criticise you. My intention was to find a common ground. But it is almost impossible to avoid misunderstandings. You (@Ginrei ) cannot explain, what is already obvious, because it does not need to be explained. (In most cases it even serves as your explanation!)
    But people, who do not see, what you (and like-minded) are trying to achieve can't ask for the missing parts either, because you are beyond their goals and interests and there is nothing to achieve, which would be worth the hassle (for them). They just leave the topic and try to stop you from pushing - to keep the peace, as you are frustrating to them.

    I have no real clue how this could be avoided. Everyone is doing right from his/her point of view - and it clashes. :-(

    Maybe everyone - who is fed up with this discussion - just leaves (without any personal attack, please)?
     
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  10. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Ultimately the issue I see that comes up again and again in forums (all of them, not just the Infinity/Rules forum) is that people don't feel as if backing off is acceptable. In many cases people end up arguing cross points and begin to antagonize one another. What benefit is had on anyone's part by doing this? All that will happen is both sides antagonize further and further until one steps away or mods come in to shut something down.

    Taking a pause and trying to approach the problem from another's point of view is a reasonable option. The words we use and the way we present ourselves influences the reactions of others. Starting with small attempts to find a middle ground will see changes in the long run.

    That being said nobody's perfect I know I can be guilty of making little snippy comments at people I ought not to. But the more we all relax and try and work together the better off we all are IMO at least.
     
  11. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I see your point now.
    The problem is it could be more things, it could mean that both are the same and then you could repair it; but it could be that Damaged rules are incomplete (the reference about deployable equipment in the effect bullet point is missing).
    For the FAQ answer (You can't repair it), it seems the RAI is closer to the second case.

    The key to avoid conflict is make clear when a RAW discussion start, I wrote about that recently in a thread that went full shitstorm. I leave the link bellow in case you are interested
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...erate-an-order-token.33928/page-7#post-264800
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Thought it was going to be a call back to Total Immunity. I'm not touching that with a ten-foot-pole, it has nothing to do with the Damaged state and using Engineer to repair and stating it has been proven to be correlated doesn't make it correlated.

    My ignore list currently has a new inhabitant, population 2, that's the best way to make sure things like this never happen.
     
  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I do have to disagree a bit here. I think this situation with @Mahtamori is a good example.

    It started after I made a statement connecting two subjects. By his own admission he didn't know what one of them was about. He didn't ignore the statement, and he didn't try to understand it. He chose instead to say they weren't equivalent and had nothing to do with each other. His reasons for saying so are his own.
     
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  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I need to call the thread in order, discuss if you want but.

    No personal attacks and keep it civil.
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    As @Daniel Darko and @TheRedZealot said, we have to try to find the middle ground. Wrestling with rules is fun for some users like myself but other don't like it (or maybe they are "on the defensive" after some threads that went downhill and just don't want to argue). @Mahtamori response was more in the line of "I don't think that's true" but he said it way more bitting, which seemed to trigger your "let's beat this topic to death" mood.

    After a few posts this happened:
    That's the red line; keep arguin after that is going to piss him off; you both don't agree but that's ok.
    If it keep going then this could happen:
    I don't think you do it with bad intention, I really don't; but your way to discuss topics seem to trigger people. Just try to be a bit less confrontational, that doesn't mean you have to give up your arguments; you can be adamant with your reasoning without going too hard on people. And also you will see that people are more likely to listen you if they don't feel pressured. That's just a friendly advice.

    Funny thing is, I think we settled that in our RAW post
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/raw-discussion-total-immunity.34041/
     
  16. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Grow up, whiner. All your self justification boils down to “I’m right and you’re stupid”. It’s pretty childish.
     
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  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Yet again, I'm not the one telling other people to "grow up". Someone else is name calling with "whiner" and "childish". I certainly didn't imply anyone was "stupid".

    @psychoticstorm Can you deal with this please?
     
  18. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That's an honest assessment. But I like to look at it in a better light. Not giving up or backing down for example (edit, unless of course facts dictate otherwise). If you look at the chain of events, there's a very clear pattern.

    I made a statement. Someone engaged me by challenging my statement. I defended my statement. From here, they continued to challenge each new defense. If I'm guilty of beating a topic to death, so is the person on the other side of the debate. Only they did so without knowledge of what the other half of the argument was about. I think it's also clear where the personal attacks start.

    Who ends up looking like the villain is another topic of discussion unfortunately.
     
    #78 Ginrei, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Nope.
    The bullet point you quote does not say that you do not suffer a wound if you fail a BTS roll.
    That bullet point says noting about BTS rolls.

    But if you look up 'BTS roll', the rules say:
    In my experience, most of the time this is true for both sides of an dispute gone personal...
     
  20. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I never said that bullet point stated anything about BTS rolls. The bullet point only tells us to lose a wound when we fail an ARM roll. So failing a BTS roll doesn't trigger that effect.

    The 'BTS roll' section doesn't change that. It only tells us what a BTS roll is. 'BTS Rolls work like ARM Rolls' refers to how the rolls are made. It has nothing to do with the application of Normal Ammo.
     
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