1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

How about that Dahshat mercenary company, huh?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Joametz, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    1,935
    The Hac Tao and Mowang are better in vanilla anyway. The Liu Xing is mediocre and also better in vanilla (where it gets outclassed by the Tiger anyway), and while the Haidao is great, its utility is mostly outclassed by the cheaper and more versatile options in Dashat.
     
    Barrogh likes this.
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    Ehh.. the Haidao is one of the most brutal KHDs in the game with its link options in IA, and it's not outclassed by brawler snipers. Not even close.


    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

    1.5 SWC | 81 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Dahshat Company
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    BRAWLER (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    1.5 SWC | 76 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Their minimum link costs are literally 5pts apart. You get +1 BS, ARM and an extra wound essentially for 5pts. That's easily worth it.

    Now if you're building a core link of Zuyongs for either IA or Dahshat, then the Haidao is 39pts CHEAPER than the Brawler. You get the benefit of having a core linked ARO sniper turret while playing second, that if he dies you can just refill his spot in the link with something else and if he doesn't he can travel with the link and retain his link benefits.

    If you play with the Brawlers you have to bring a whole link for the Brawlers, plus the whole link for the Zuyongs and in the event the Brawler MSV2 doesn't die on turn 1, he can't retain core link bonuses and travel with the Zuyongs he has to pass the core link bonuses over to them.

    In either scenario if the Brawler or Haidao gets left behind for reasons such as the link ownership was transfered or space had to be made for a KHD Haidao, the Haidao remains significantly better out of the link than a lone 1W BS12 MSV model.

    Put it this way if IA's Haidao was also in Dahshat you basically wouldn't see the Brawler Sniper much.
     
    #282 Triumph, Apr 7, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,002
    Likes Received:
    4,661
    It almost looks like MO should start lobbying for their own NA2 to be better ;P
     
    Thandar likes this.
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    No, they should basically stick to doing what IA needs to do, getting their dudd units like the Shang-Ji/Teutons fixed.

    If Shang-Ji and the Guijia weren't utter shit we probably wouldn't be having this thread.
     
  5. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    1,935
    I meant more along the lines of the 5-man Rui Shi combined with the much stronger midfield support that Dashat can provide. The Hai Dao is definitely one of the strong points of IA, and Dashat doesn't directly compete with it, but it's a worthwhile cost to take for everything else that Dashat does better.
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    You're comparing an ARO turret with an attack piece saying one is better than the other. They have different jobs. You might as well say the Haidao is outclassed because it's not a Cutter, which doesn't make any sense. What you're doing doesn't make any sense either.

    Again, the problem is not Dahshat.

    You are pissed off that IA has one trick with their Zuyong link and TacAw.

    You are pissed off that Dahshat has that same one Zuyong trick plus a bunch of other options.

    The solution to your problem is not to delete or change Dahshat because your problem is not Dahshat's existence it's the lack of scope Invincibles have.

    Therefore, the solution to your complaints is to solve the cause of IA's problems.

    What's the cause of IA's problems? A big chunk of their roster either outright sucks or doesn't gel properly with them with leads to stifled list creativity which causes the over reliance on one build. As far as the internal ecosystem goes within the sectorial even just fixing one unit can have a great deal of knock on effects.

    If you improve the Shang-Ji's cost vs stats, their shit direction as expensive Zuyongs, fix their link options to include access to viable tool box stuff like Albedo, Mine Dispensers, Drop Bears, Grenades etc in cheaper light core links that come in the 100-120pt range rather than the 150-180pt Zuyong links you indirectly buff other options.

    When effective but cheaper core links are available it naturally increases the viability of running complementary Haris links such as the Yan Huo, or supplementing the core link with more agile options like the Hac Tao and not ask yourself why the fuck am I doing this outside of Vanilla. It would give IA the chance to actually flex their muscles with the full AVA3 on Zencha.

    You can get all of that and more just by fixing Shang-Ji. Imagine how much better IA feels if you tune up everything else that needs it like the Guijia as well.
     
    #286 Triumph, Apr 7, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
    Ariwch, ObviousGray, Solodice and 5 others like this.
  7. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    1,935
    I can more than get on board with that.
     
  8. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2018
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    410
    Comparison between armies is mostly pointless unless you are deciding on specific missions to play. A lot of this rants about IA beign lackluster and rigid while Dahshat is flexible and full of everything mankind needs as a whole sounds like just noise.

    I mean, any debate about strong/weak points of an army is good but you need to bring actual context to it. "Now that Dahshat has a TA HMG Zuyong, what is the point of playing IA?" is not a way to start a conversation about the competitive capabilities of a sectorial, that's just salt.

    I honestly believe we should never stop talking about pros and cons of anything Infinity related, because listening to other points of view and opinions is a way to get better at the game, which leads to a better experience while playing it. But please, let's add context and take a second to explain better what we mean.

    For example: I think IA has a really competitive roster for ITS 10. It has amazing DataTracker options and Xenotech carriers (like the Mowang); doesn't have any problems when it comes to specialists and Classifieds (you can do them all with mainstream units that also serve as shooters: Haidao and Tai Sheng for instance); it has Infiltrating and AD troops that can both combat and do objectives; it is very resilient with several sturdy models that can generate more than one order a piece; it has visors that can be linked and also Camo/TO Camo units to pry on the armies that don't have them; it has several Wildcard troops that can round up Fireteams for cheap (or not), and those Fireteams can be either offensive, defensive or objective-taking oriented, while also beign either LI or HI based... The list goes on, but I think you get my point. You can also say that even though it has all of this, it lacks other stuff, like smoke. And you'd be correct! We could also discuss how IA fares when an ITS tournament allows SoF or is a Limited Insertion event as well. Or maybe you have a tournament and want opinions on which army to play based on the listed missions (is Dahshat better than IA at Highly Classified? What about Decapitation?).

    But that talk should always have some sort of context to it, otherwise it devolves into a rant.
     
    #288 Joametz, Apr 8, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
    Maksimas, Deltervees and Solar like this.
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,930
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    I wrote up some highlights from a game I played on Saturday here. I thought it was more appropriate in the Dahshat group.

    So far I'm finding there are definite differences between IA and Dahshat. You don't have a Lt. nearly as good as the Daoying. So far I've been relying on the Zyuong HMG Lt. I love that it's 1 SWC however, he's near the top in the target priority.

    Only 4 hackers and none of them are KHD. Essentially the choices for hackers are Gromoz. She's 1 pt. more that a Ghulam and comes with a pitcher.

    The Zhencha in Dahshat is okay but most of the time I’ll probably take Hunzakut. It significantly cheaper, higher WIP, and I’d take the FO that comes with Deployable Repeaters. Which really is not that great since I don’t have great hackers to take advantage of them. I also like the Rifle+Lt. Shotgun.

    The Zuyong can take wildcards but those wildcards are squishy compared to more Zuyong. I miss the Haidao.

    One thing I wish IA had was something like McMurough. He’s essentially a un-hackable Heavy with ARM 4 and 2 Wounds.

    I tried the Hulang once in my first game and he was killed right away by a Fiday. You’d think he’d be more supported in Dahshat but it still kinda sucks he needs support. Again McMurder is the true Hulang.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I'm not willing to put the Mowang down as "amazing". It's alright. Mediocrity personified even.

    Dahshat and Ikari though. I'm looking at their lists and it's like they're like two guys at a costume party both dressed like Ceasar, not the same outfit, but the same guy and much more so than IA and Dahshat (that's more one guy is dressed as Ceasar and the other is dressed as Cleopatra)
     
    Barrogh, Furiat and Deltervees like this.
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    Mowang's biggest effect is probably his most lowkey aspect that gets overlooked.

    1 SWC for a burst 4 big guy. It's something we haven't had access to and really opens up list building. Allows us to jam a whole extra TR bot into lists and actually use YJ's extra AVA on stuff (like the TR bots).
     
  12. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    933
    Mowang is an elite trooper which helps with classifieds and mimetism lets him hold suppression better than Su Jian, he is a very interesting sidegrade and NCO makes him very good for single group list in vanilla
     
  13. HouseOfKings

    HouseOfKings Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    32
    I know one game doesn't make or break a unit, but the Mowang is an auto include for me in missions where your datatracker needs to be on a point at the end. I walked my Mowang up to the center point in Acquisition against FRRM and he stayed there the whole game. Not exactly the smartest play, but he killed a Metro core team and both parts of Mirage-5 on his own. He even managed to kill the Daoying lieutenant that Duroc was trying to CC to death.
     
    Joametz likes this.
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I find that having a less prominent member of the Zuyong team usually means many more wounds to go through when it comes to Datatracker. Mowang is perfectly adequate, but I don't say that in an Oxford accent, as a mandatorily solo/duo miniature he doesn't go beyond that unlike Su-Jian or Kriza or Hac Tao which are able to go beyond the role and be fireteam replacements.

    If the Mowang had been able to pull a Kriza's performance curve or have an alternate attack vector toolbox similar to how Raicho or Su-Jian are able to pull stuff off that's not otherwise available, they'd be able to be a reason in and of itself to play IA. The main attraction. As is, Mowang is merely able to be Tai Sheng's situational sidegrade. This is acceptable, as Tai is very good, but not awe inspiring.
     
    LuAn likes this.
  15. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2018
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    410
    I do agree that Mowang is no Su-Jian nor Kriza. But as a DataTracker or even Xenotech babysitter he's able to deliver. Those roles can be better performed by units outside of a Fireteam in some missions (always in the case of the Xeno and in those missions you have an extra Irregular order for the DataTracker as well). That's the primary role I see for him, accepting that Tai is a better way to funnel the Lt. orders in most cases.

    It's certainly not mandatory and Tai Sheng by herself can do what he does, even if she is a little more squishy.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    IA, played to the fluff as "the HI sectorial" pretty much locks into the Tai Sheng Zuyong Pain Train plus obligatory Daoying, 6 models for ~210 points.

    You certainly can build IA lists with a Zanshi Core, but that's like making your Military Orders LT a Fusilier (in old MO). Yes, it makes tactical sense to do that, but why are you playing MO/IA and not bringing lots of Heavy Infantry to the table?!?



    As mentioned before: The Invincible Army doesn't do 'subtle'. 'Subtle' is for people that cannot afford Power Armor.

    The problem is that Dahshat has the flexibility that IA doesn't, and almost everything that makes IA awesome. If Dahshat had LT2 models, I probably wouldn't play IA at all.



    BTS0 hacker with 1W (+NWI, granted). Yeah, that's kinda lackluster if not in the link team, where it gets a Tinbot B to help with that problem.

    Mowang isn't bad, but it's not as intimidating as Kriza or Taskmaster. It's the same cost as a Yan Huo HRMC, and the HRMC is death incarnate with a side order of BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP.
     
    Deltervees and Henshini like this.
  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,355
    Who needs subtlety when shock factor is more fun?
     
  18. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,444
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    Maybe it is just me, but the Dahshat lack of KHD makes a huge difference.
     
    Ben Kenobi likes this.
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,930
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    I think it does because the hackers Dashat does have are not that great.
    The only difference between a Ghulam HD and Gromoz is that she has a Pitcher. WIP 14, BTS 0.
    The Brawler AHD is only WIP 12, BTS 3 and the Zhencha AHD is meh with WIP 13, BTS 3 and arguably more vulnerable for being HI.

    Gromoz almost MUST be in a link team with the Zuyong to get help from the Tinbot B.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    Right now, because of a fuck up in the rules the Brawler AHD is actually one of the more frustrating hackers to deal with because he's so dirt cheap and expendable.

    Essentially because of @ijw 's ruling in this thread https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/repeaters-vs-stealth.22609/

    The Brawler can delay its hacking AROs through repeaters. So let's say you pitch Gromoz' repeater to the edge of something important's ZOC, like Joan in a pain train or the Hospi Doc/HMG.

    Joan/Hospi activate, now either their attached KHD enters the repeater ZOC and tries to fight several hackers at once through a firewall which is relatively dangerous given his low burst, or Joan/Hospi Move, get delayed on, declare second skill, then get an oblivion thrown at them on a normal roll, at which point WIP12 doesn't seem so problematic anymore.

    This also works for possessing TAGs.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation