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New Player!

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Kai Wren, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    Hi guys!

    I'm somewhat new to Infinity and to JSA even moreso. I played a couple of small points games with friends 2-3 years ago, but our terrain setup was woefully inadequate and it was a horrible experience.

    Recently a new game store opened up and one of said friends gave it another go; he had a fantastic time and pulled me along. Most of my Aleph stuff had gone missing / dissolved in the intervening time (moves are rough on minis sometimes, boo) so I bought the NCA starter box because I thought those guys looked cool and jumped in.

    I got my butt kicked so bad but it was hilarious fun the entire time. The rules were nowhere near as complex as I remembered, and with a proper terrain setup everything fell into place. And - in case you were wondering why I'm posting in this forum - I also saw the JSA army box whilst I was there, and fell in love with those minis. Seeing them up close was very different to the photos.

    Plus, their playstyle is 100% the one I normally gravitate to in wargames; close-range, offensively focused and swift. Almost a complete 180 on the dudes I'd grabbed before.

    Suffice to say I'm really looking forward to trying them out on the table, and this subforum has been super helpful for general advice as to - largely - what to expect.

    There are a few questions hanging over me, though.

    There's basically no minis for JSA which don't appeal to me - which is good - but somewhat overwhelming. The advice I've had so far is that the special weapon Keisotsu, some Tankos and Shinobu Kitsune are a good base to build from for what I've got. I'm thinking that Yojimbo and some Domaru are probably high priorities too? And Musashi just looks like fun. I also really like the TAG, and the bikes (see what I mean about just wanting everything?) But those seem like tools which I'll have difficulty getting the most out of until I have more experience?

    I mean, I don't want to buy a ton more stuff until I've painted what I've got, so there's no rush there I suppose.

    I'm also curious what the consensus is on the Daiyokai Dengekitai. I don't see him brought up much but he's one of the bigger and more impressive units in the army box. On paper, he looks like he might struggle with range bands and positioning given his large size and relatively short engagement range, but he is quite fast compared to the heavy troops I had access to in the NCA box. My gut read is that he's mostly going to work better as an area denial / defensive piece if you can push him into a relatively well-covered mid-board position, but any advise as to how to make the most of him would be appreciated (he DOES look pretty awesome, after all; it'll be a shame if he just sits on my shelf forever after I get more options!)

    Thanks guys!
     
  2. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Have you thought of Ikari, yet? When I got into JSA (having previously played Yu Jing), I did so because I wanted to try both. And, I feel the Daiyokai definitely fits in Ikari, regardless of how he works in JSA.

    When I played him in JSA, I did like the duo with a Domaru, usually Neko, who'd be waiting around for the right time to charge into the midfield...
     
  3. Paperclip

    Paperclip Active Member

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    Its my 5th game or so with JSA and this is what I am running today for quadrant control.

    I'm not sure if this helps with your buying decisions but I think JSA currently falls into LI lists with samurais, light infantry powering the ninjas or some kind of hybrid. Personally I think the domarus can't power their way by themselves through most situations due to their short range weaponry. A haris of karakuri Mk12 and heavy shotgun with a domaru escort is where I think range fighting is at for JSA. When I build a list, I ask myself if that list can deal with a 5 man linked MSV2 Kamau or withstand a first turn achilles rampage.

    P.S. I use the kuroshi rider as yojimbo because she looks so much better but you gotta find some S1 models for the koalas.

    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome!


    Honestly, there are several different builds you can do for JSA. You can go lots of ninjas, lots of samurai, lots of bikes, or lots of light dudes. You should be careful when doing the lots of ninjas list, you don't want more than 2 models in Hidden Deployment. The Army Pack gives you a good start on the 'lots of light dudes' list.

    You're probably going to end up with everything, eventually. I'd recommend also grabbing the Kanren Hacker model from Yu Jing to use as a second Ryuken SMG, just paint it to match your JSA color scheme.
     
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  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    One of the big changes in the last edition is that almost all Heavy Infantry now have 4-4 movement, so the Daiyokai isn't particularly fast in his class.

    I personally avoid it unless I really want to play it. The big problem I have with the Daiyokai is that at BS13 with the Red Fury, he's what I call a "bully piece", meaning he can go run over most weak units but has trouble cracking anything tough. He's also a big investment for a relatively low utility among bully pieces -- at least a taskmaster also packs a template and some Crazy Koalas...

    Its sad because I had previously wishlisted basically what the Daiyokai is -- some kind of Fire Superiority piece that wasn't as expensive as a TAG, and unfortunately it just doesn't work that well on the table for JSA.
     
  6. CodeMOIN37

    CodeMOIN37 Member

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    The thing to bear in mind with JSA is that they’re at their best close to medium range and they actually have lost of tools that are good for board control (and a few that are excellent). For this to work though you generally need lots of orders- the lists I run always have at least 14 regular orders. That being said, Yojimbo is an auto-include for me. He’s great at laying down smoke on the first turn and if he survives into the second he’s great as a guided missile- smoke something big like a tag and charge it down!

    I almost always find room for the Kempeitai MSV2 SMR and put him in a fire team with Keisotsu- this pairs well with the smoke that Yojimbo lays down.

    As for Daiyokai, I have used the red fury profile a lot in a Haris with neko lieutenant and Haris domaru. He works as a delivery vehicle for the two domaru, digging out entrenched units with sheer number of shots whilst getting them to a place where they can start chucking Grenades about. Don’t forget that panzerfaust as well. This usually involves him having to tank a lot of damage though and he rarely survives very long.

    I have been using Karakuri recently as a Haris option and I have to say they are amazing and one of the best profiles in JSA. You can take the mk12 and shotgun profile and the Haris domaru for less points than the Daiyokai based Haris mentioned above. The Karakuri are massively more survivable, you have a better variety of weapons and every profile is a specialist to boot.

    Other profile that is pretty essential is the Ryuken smg- lots been said about it, so In brief, deploy mid-board in a good vantage point and then drop into suppression.

    I find JSA very rewarding to play but require a bit of finesse to get the job done. They don’t have much which is particularly dangerous at long range but get them up close and they can be very scary!

    The JSA army box or the Keisotsu/Kempeitai unit box are the best places to start.
     
  7. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot for the feedback, guys! Plenty to think about in this thread.

    I'm going to have to exercise some willpower not to buy way too much right away, but I'm looking forward to seeing how the army box works in the first few low points games.

    I've got some time off this week so I'm hopeful I can paint up the army box, and perhaps snag a few extra toys to play around with. I'll let you know how it goes when I've actually had some of them hit the table!
     
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    The Tankos go well together with the Domarus. And the Domaru Haris is nice for the Karakuris. Shinobu is really nice - even brings another source of smoke which helps to advance. You might consider Saito here as well, he brings smoke and is a specialist, and you might use him elsewhere as well. The Keisotsu SW-Box is nice for the MSV2 SMR and ML Keisotsu, and you might consider Yoriku Oda from Dire Foes. To me Yojimbo is quite important. The Koalas help secure the DZ or midfield, he brings smoke, and the bikes (together with Kuroshi rider) are so fast! Go in, toss some smoke, grab some objective with her, and you'll be back in your DZ with minimal orders spent.

    That is a great idea! A second one is really nice, but I think that is not the highest priority to start with.

    The Karakuri are really strong, but without a Domaru the Haris is quite expensive and vulnerable to melee.
    Another nice thing to consider is the Rui Shi and Lu Duan. The Lu Duan is a really good to roadblocker, and the Rui Shi with Marksmanship2 (Supportware) and smoke is just a beast.

    But the thing I yould recomend the most is to go for Yojimbo first.
    This will leave you at 240-250 points, so I'd advice to get Shimobu and/or the Keisotsu-Box as well to get to 300.
    But if you already have Saito (or the Outrage oniwaban), that might already be enough, especially with the Spec-Ops that you might use as a proxy for another Keisotsu, Kempeitai or Ryuken.

    But keep in mind that you will rarely attack with the Keisotsu Core Link, they are more like cheerleaders and to protect the CoC Kempeitai. Playing an aggressiv Lieutenant (and using that extra Lt order) is really fun, and it might make your opponent spend many orders just to kill it, even if you do't care (too much).
     
  9. Desolad0r

    Desolad0r Member

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    My two cents. My purchase list would be:

    1. Army Pack
    2. Keisotsu and Yojimbo
    3. Domaru and Tanko

    I like so much the Lu Duan/Rui shi... But I am waiting for a remake. The same for the Karakuri and the 8pts-remote.
    At the beginning, I'd use the Oniwaban to proxy any TO character or random ninja (or himself).

    With that, you have several choices to play in long time in my opinion. Then you can decide what you want next.
     
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  10. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    So today was my first time getting the JSA to the table and it was an absolute blast.

    We're doing an escalation league tournament. The first two games I played were against Ariadna - 150 pt, control the central module missions.

    I took 2x standard Keisotsu, 1x Paramedic Keisotsu, Kempei with MSV2, Ryuken with SMG, Oniwaban with SMG and had Keisotsu Rider as my Lieutenant.

    Game 1 was just horrific luck on my opponent's part and insane luck on mine. He took first turn and I had set up my miniatures to ensure there was no real way for him to draw line of sight round 1. I decided to gamble and had my Oniwaban succeed a superior infiltration roll to set up on the far side of the objective room where I had intended to reveal him round 2/3 and cut up whoever was still there.

    As it turned out that wasn't necessary. My Ryuken killed off the troop he'd left in suppressive fire covering the building, then moved to the left and killed the advance he had there. My Kempei went into suppressive fire to hold that flank and the Ryuken walked back to cover the room. That left me with a few orders and I decided to risk it with the Kuroshi Rider and charged her around the back of the building. I fully expected to lose the rider but he'd bunched up a lot of camo markers, troopers, and a big HI miniature so I thought if she could thin that out it'd be a worthwhile trade.

    In actual fact she survived all the reaction fire and refused to die, eventually taking out the HI miniature in close combat. I made something ridiculous like 9 or 10 armour saves back to back, and then she proceeded to kill everything that he threw at her in his active turn as she was positioned right in the heart of his lines and could just lay about her with the flamethrower or combi rifle. It shouldn't have worked... but it did, and that was basically game. She did eventually die when I moved her towards his lieutenant on the next turn, but that was the only mini he managed to kill.

    Game 2 was the same list and this time I went first. My Oniwaban failed to infiltrate - I probably shouldn't have tried for it the second time, but deploying him as a TO marker and moving him up forced my opponent to put a lot of effort into trying to discover him turn 1. Meanwhile, my Ryuken got into good position in the room and secured it with mines, with my Kempei providing covering fire. Ultimately, this time, I just kept him locked out of the room with suppression fire and mines, and his poor rolling meant he didn't even manage to kill the Oniwaban although he did discover him (he then ran into the room and went back into TO).

    Game 3 was 200 points quadrant control and I'd switched out the Ryuken for a Husong Yaokong and taken the red fury Daiyokai. This time I was up against PanOceania, and the board was a lot harder to read; there was a massive amount of clutter and not many clear fire lanes. I decided that either my Oniwaban would be fine in my deployment or would do a huge amount of work if I could get him into the backlines of my opponent, who had deployed heavily into one area. I rolled the superior infiltrate and it paid off hugely.

    First round I moved the Daiyokai up unopposed and plinked off a fusillier who turned out to be the Lieutenant, which was hugely lucky. My Yaokong moved up and killed another fusillier but was mostly there to draw out the camo marker he'd positioned on the building my Oniwaban was currently hiding behind. The rest of my army made sure it was safe in cover and out of line of sight.

    He revealed the marker to be a Swiss Guard with HMG - which I'd suspected. The Swiss Guard killed my Yaokong, and the rest of his army moved up - end of round 1 we each controlled the same number of quadrants and each had our data trackers in one of those areas.

    Then I revealed my Oniwaban and proceeded to kill the swiss guard, a remote, another trooper, return to TO and prepare to drop down on the other three models he had in his back field. My Daiyokai moved up and killed the only other mini on that side of the board. In his turn 2 he failed to drop in his drop trooper and that was basically game - the Oniwaban killed everything left except the drop trooper.

    A lot of those games were down to lucky rolls on my part - the first one especially - but in all three games I had a plan for what I wanted my guys to do and the JSA did not disappoint. I'm looking forward to taking them out more in future!
     
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  11. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    If you fail to infiltrate you are not allowed to deploy as a marker, you need to deploy as a model.

    "Additionally, after failing an Infiltration Roll, the user loses the option to deploy in Camouflaged or TO Camouflaged state and the Hidden Deployment option granted by the Camouflage and Hiding (CH) Special Skill, as well as any Deployable Weapons and Equipment deployed alongside him, which are removed from the game table."
     
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  12. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    Huh! Interesting.

    That changes the calculation on taking that risk significantly. The tournament organiser said he'd still deploy as a token which was why I took that chance. I'll have to bear that in mind in future.
     
  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Remember that even as a model, simply having TO camo puts a -6 to-hit on the Ninjas.
     
  14. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't think it would have changed that game particularly. As I had first turn and he deployed out of immediate line of sight anyway, I'd have spent an order to put him back in marker state rather than move one of my Keisotsu up the field.

    Still something to keep in mind for future, though!
     
  15. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    My continuing adventures in learning this game ... continue!

    This weekend was kind of rough, honestly. As we were setting up for my first game, my Kuroshi Rider - which may be the best mini I have ever painted and was certainly the one I was most proud of - fell onto a hardwood floor and broke into its constituent parts. I didn't examine it in detail but it looked like the paintwork was badly chipped and damaged which did not put me in the best state of mind for actually playing a game, but I didn't want to slow things up so I did my best.

    Game started off very well. Another game against Ariadna, doing Quadrant Control. My Daiyokai was MVP, walking up the board and taking on all comers. My Oniwaban ate a chain rifle to the face which was a painful learning experience, but I was still winning handily.

    Then I realised that I'd misremembered my list completely and was playing my Kempei as though it had MSV2 because that was what I was taking for the 250 pt game. Having informed my opponent of that and then finding that I couldn't have ever afforded it I had to take a total loss - purely because I am an idiot. The positioning of the Kempei had played heavily into the Ariadna player's use of smoke and it was all a bit of a mess. Still, from a 'learning the game' perspective I got a lot out of the matchups and we played the game to the end anyway. By the end of round 2 he only had one mini left alive and I'd only lost the Oniwaban and Kuroshi Rider, so, I felt like I had a pretty good handle on my stuff.

    Then it was the 250 pt game - first round using link teams and specialists for objectives and I was destroyed completely by Haqq Islam.

    I badly misplayed my deployment, putting my link team on a low roof with good sight lines of the objectives with the thought that I would use them to cover with the Kempei who actually did have MSV2 and a marksman shock rifle this time around. I had intended to move the Daiyokai up the right flank to put pressure on him, and use Saito to pip an objective in the last round.

    I realised as soon as he finished deployment that it wasn't going to work. He had a missile launcher with a perfect view on my link team and he was kind enough to inform me that through link team bonuses it'd get 2 shots at BS 17 if I did anything with them turn 1. He also had a second link team composed mostly of Asawiras with spitfires.

    I got lucky, moving my Daiyokai up and managing to kill off the missile launcher with my first activation in an unfavourable face to face roll. I couldn't outrange the Asawiras so my only hope was to move up, take the objectives, and play keepaway with them. I couldn't get my Daiyokai to draw line of sight on the sniper he also had covering the link team, so I lost one of them on the way down, and it took the rest of my orders to move them into position and open one of the tech coffins to receive the objective. I did manage to position everything but the Daiyokai out of easy line of sight, however.

    He spec fired smoke onto my Daiyokai, not much I could do about that, and then ran his Asawiras up and into position. He managed to just draw line of sight onto my Kuroshi Rider and killed her, which put me in loss of Lieutenant.

    That was what probably won him the game because with all my orders made irregular and no command tokens to assist, I had to hunker down and put most stuff into suppressive fire. I tried to move out with my TR remote but the link team bonuses meant that it died in my active turn trying to shoot the Asawiras. His turn two was brutal as the Asawiras walked up and killed everything in sight. His last order revealed that there was a specialist in that group (can't remember exactly what it was but it had been using a holo-projector to pretend to be something else I think?) who wound up with two objectives even though it could only carry one.

    I had imagined that Saito would be useful at that midpoint of the table, though, and I was correct. Saito revealed in the specialists zone of control, the only thing I had left other than my Daiyokai which was far too out of position to do anything useful. Still, I figured if I closed in, killed the specialist, took an objective and fled I might have a slim chance of winning as he had no other specialists near the objectives, and worst case scenario I'd draw with none of us having objectives.

    He had 1 die needing an 11. Saito used 2 dice critting on a 16+. Saito rolled a 4 and a 5. He rolled an 11. GG Saito.

    Honestly, I have no idea how to counter a link team like that, let alone 2 of them. He always seemed to have a significant advantage in both dice and target number, and my own link team just couldn't keep up. I'm guessing that getting some minis with monofilament close combat weapons in there might help, but they are still CC21 with MA2 so they aren't exactly slouches and the spitfire 8-24 +3 range band is very strong in close quarters. Trying to stay out of that is tough with JSA. I've been trying to think of what I could do differently next time and I'm struggling - maybe if I'd brought a Ryuken with missile launcher I could bank on the surprise shot and try to gauge a shot at 25-32 inches? Seems like even that is only going to get so far, though.

    If anyone does have any tips for dealing with hardcore link teams like that I'd love to hear them!

    Edit: Almost forgot to add the most important thing. Kuroshi Rider has made a (nearly) full recovery. I spent some time sunday putting her back together and the damage wasn't as bad as I first thought. If you don't know what you are looking for you can't even see the repairs, for the most part.
     
    #15 Kai Wren, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  16. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Shinobu, tossing smoke, has a chance to pick them apart, and imposes a -6 MOD, whilst she's hitting on CC22 (assuming the asawira picks L1). Not great odds, but she can target multiple models if she can get into base contact.

    A ninja sniper at more than 32"range will impose an overall -12 MOD (TO, range, cover, even with a +3 link bonus), although they're only hitting on likely 11's.
     
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  17. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    If the smoke template was placed on top of the Daiyokai he would get a Dodge ARO with 2" movement which if successful could potentially bring him outside of the smoke depending on exact placement. If it's centered on you it won't be enough to get out unless you have Kinematics, but it often isn't.
    Worth remembering because it can also be used against you if you try to lob smoke with Shinobu/Saito/Yojimbo on someone with the intention of engaging it in CC, if you place it badly they might be able to dodge out far enough so that you won't be able to engage them while inside the smoke anymore.

    * Troopers affected by a Template Weapon or Equipment can declare Dodge as their second Short Skill or ARO, even if they do not have LoF to the attacker.
     
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  18. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Friendly reminder, that you can never go into Loss of Lieutenant, as long as you have a Kempei on the table.
     
  19. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Friendly reminder, take a look at the Kempeitai profiles; only half of them have Chain of Command.
     
  20. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    ... Derp. Didn't read which Kempei he had, my bad =)
     
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