1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Exile and Veteran

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Zsolt, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    887
  2. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    726
    Curious on this one as well. We've always ruled that it does not break the link, since that is specified as a side effect of the isolation effect.

    edit: of course, you could read it as a side effect of the Exile skill itself (but generally skills with multiple effects don't list parts of them as 'side effects,' at least insofar as I can recall).
     
    #2 Vanderbane, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  3. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    887
    I don't think it's clear, that it's the side effect of the Isolation. It may be the side effect of the hacking program. Though then it should be the effect of the hacking program.
     
    Vanderbane likes this.
  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Fairly certain the answer was "yes. They're actually two different effects"... But I can't remember. It's certainly a conversation that's been had before.

    Edit: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/exile-and-number-2.22854/

    I think this is the best answer on it (by@Spleen):

    ""Como Efecto añadido" - "As an added effect"

    It's almost certainly a translation issue given this is the spanish, and I'm sure in at least one of those threads you linked I've brought up the exact same thing before (edit: Turns out not those specific ones). Although I think people still tried to claim it was an added effect of isolated, not the skill, so it doesn't entirely resolve the matter."
     
    #4 inane.imp, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
    paraelix likes this.
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Well, since cancelling the Fireteam is not part of the effects derived from Isolated (it's not part of the Isolated effects), being a Veteran should not protect against what is an Exile effect.
     
    daboarder, Hecaton and inane.imp like this.
  6. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,800
    I believe the old ruling was that you can't exile veteran as the cancellation comes along with the isolation bold for emphasis:

    • Failing the BTS Roll causes the target to enter the Isolated state, signified by an Isolated Marker (ISOLATED) in base to base contact.
    • As a side effect, the Fireteam is cancelled, even if the target was not the Team Leader, so the player must remove the correspondent Team Leader Marker from the game table.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    The issue is whether cancelling the Fireteam is a side effect of putting the target into the Isolated state, or a side effect of the target 'failing the BTS Roll'.
     
  8. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,800
    Fair, I'd be interested to see how this one falls, as a member of the E-drone in every list subcommittee I play it as I've mentioned, if it effects Bolts, Vet kazaks, and morats too I certainly will not be piping up to complain!

    Don't think it sheds any more light on it but the next line is:
    Unless there are other effects with criticals or states which have a similar outcome that's more clear? Only thing I can immediately think of is EM where the imm2 for HI, REM, TAG is referred to as an "addition" rather than a side effect.
    Technically if it's not intended as being in relation to the failed BTS roll (and therefore isolation effect) then just hitting somebody with exile would break a team which is clearly not what is intended (I wouldn't complain about that either, bent as it would be).
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    I've always played it that it breaks the fireteam but doesn't isolate the veteran; "side effect" would imply it's an additional effect of the program.
     
    Foxbringer likes this.
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Check the Spanish. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'addition' and 'side effect' were slightly different translations of the same Spanish text.

    The way I read it (based on the Spanish and layout) is that Exile applies 2 independent effects after a failed BTS roll.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  11. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    726
    So I was looking for a comparable case that does damage and applies a state, or the like. Fire ammo states that it causes a save for damage and "additionally" the burnt state. In the Spanish it uses "ademas" which is what is translated to "additionally" in the English version of the rule.

    For Exile, as @inane.imp pointed out, it uses "Como efects amadido" in the non-critical effect. But it uses "ademas" for the critical.

    I don't know if that clears up any more, but if it is "additionally" in the critical, I think it is likely fair to assume that "Como efects amadido" can be read as synonymous with "additionally"
     
  12. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    887
    I appreciate the effort, but I still think CB just can't write rules, so looking for patterns and precedents just gives them the wrong message.

    This situation should be cleared in 10 second by CB stuff, instead of people sitting on it, and trying to guess what the hell was CB thinking.

    So please CB (@Koni), don't pull a GW on us!
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  13. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    92
    I can't remember where this came from, (and/or who told me this), but I always thought units with the Veteran skill can be put into the Isolated state; they simply ignore its effects.
    In which case, the Fireteam would always break from Exile as they'd gain the state regardless of any skills.

    (IIRC, this also comes into play with one of the missions).
     
  14. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    887
    That's true, they go Isolated, and don't care. Just shout louder. But if Veteran ignores the effects of the Isolated state, and disband of the link is the effect of the Isolated state, then Veteran ignores that as well, so the link does not break.
     
  15. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    92
    I guess that comes down to which of the following is true;
    1. The Link disbands because the model is in the Isolated State.
    2. The Link disbands because the model is affected by the Isolated State.
    3. The Link disbands because they failed the BTS roll from the Hacking attack.
    Unfortunately I can't confirm it right now, but if @ijw's phrasing is correct, (and he usually is!), then I'd say it's either #1 or #3 - so either way the link breaks.
     
  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Isolated state only cause the fireteam to break if the team leader is Isolated
    Exile cause fireteam to break no matter the target

    I think it's proof enough that the isolation is not the cause of the fireteam break and should work on Vet Kaz... Veteran
     
    xagroth, Hecaton, inane.imp and 2 others like this.
  17. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    887
    It’s an extension on the isolation state imo.
     
  18. Zhukov2

    Zhukov2 Active Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    30
    My two cents on this would be that the link is broken due to the wording, but no one is isolated because they ignore the isolation, which means, they can reform the link on their next turn.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,686
    Likes Received:
    5,510
    how do you rationalize that to not hitting the teamleader then?

    Because if its just reinforcing the effect of the isolated state, then any member can be isolated, it itsn going to break the link unless they are the leader.

    As such it really needs to be perceived as an effect caused by the program, to which Veterans are not immune
     
  20. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    887
    It's like Isolated + (like Bioimmunity over shock immunity or viral over shock). If it hits, it breaks the link, even if not the team lead was hit.

    Though rules are not rational, they are buggy and half thought through.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation