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JSA profiles

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Lothair, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Anyone that thinks the Oniwaban is overpriced has clearly never played against one being used competently!
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You can't have both. If I want to go all out on damage potential the BSG Oniwaban beats Shinobu by being cheaper and having a gun with better Order efficiency. If you want dirt cheap there is the new SMG Profile. If you want an EXP CCW you have an existing option in Saito.
    Some Profiles are complimentary and work better after you already filled the slot with something else. If you want multiple CC Specialists up the field and already took Saito, you might not want to shell out for Shinobu as well. The Oniwaban is cheaper and - again - gets a different gun that does different things.

    Karakuri can go Prone, have Total Immunity and BTS. That's pretty huge and makes them resilient against pretty much everything. Their problem is the lack of access to a proper B4 gun and a cheap filler Profile to make a Link able to keep up with their competition.

    The Daiyokai has something most CC20 troops are lacking, PH14 AP+DA to make it hurt when he hits as well as ARM5 and 2W+NWI so he can lose a FTF against normal troops without worry. And then there is his Haris with 2 Domaru so he basically only needs the Stealth and defensive value.

    I do agree that Superior Infiltraton should die in a fire (or simply give 4 more Inches of deployment). Banking on a 75% or 80% roll to change the entire game is terrible. Regular Infiltration rolls are already stupid enough for the reward you get if they work on a 7-10. Not a fan of emphasizing to gamble on RNG during deployment.
     
  3. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    @Aldo
    its hard to say without knowing the point system reverse engineering only brings you so far. I think you made a good point though.

    @MikeTheScrivener
    Yeah, kinda its definitely a step in the right direction but i agree with Mahtamori you kinda want to have the sweet +6 so i think a light would be very good as a mid point option. Playing this profile will tell if it was enough.



    @Mahtamori
    A) But Optimized dosen't mean you take the best of every ability and Pay the Price. It means finding the best option for a Models cost, in the role you want him. Oni is sadly not an Optimized killer. He just has a lot of shiny stuff half of which you never use.


    B)"The Ninja on the other hand doesn't do what the Oniwaban does. At all."
    Not my perspective the 26/29 ninja murders most things in melee just as good as the Oniwaban. Just don't expect them to take on Achilles.


    C)"I feel that Saito is a poor-man's Shinobu"
    Saito is one of the best Rambo units we have. The Oniwaban is the worst. The live of an oniwaban is short. he kills his target than dies without mutch resistance. Both seito and shinbo do the job better.



    @meikyoushisui
    a) Yes a normal ninja with a shoot gun. He would find his way in all the lists.

    b) Yep and the Fiday (witch might be the best Assassin in the game) is 30p. The oniwaban is too expensive to throw away.



    @Teslarod
    Amen to your last point man.

    On the karakuri: I think the lake of B4 weapons is the exact reason they could use a damage buff. (Marksman) other 120p links usually have b4 weapons so taking them in 3's dosent make them more effective than those troops. Going Prone can be super usefull but you can live without it. Making them Rems would t change there defensive abilities.

    I promise i will play the Daiyoka. He just seems to suffer from Oniwabansickness "lot of shiny stuff half of which you never use."
     
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I think as a solo unit the first part is true (and he'll beat basically anything without MA even with his kind of average CC) but with the link team he's basically going to be a delivery system for Neko.
     
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  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yeah thanks. Deployment should be entirely consist out of tactical decisions. Metachemistry and Booty are somewhat okay, Infiltration rolls are an abomination.

    Since you like Unidrons so much, picture the following scenario - a hypothetical Core linked Karakuri with a Plasmasniper sits on a roof. Once it finally drops it has 2 levels of Unconscious and Total Immunity so it's very likely not to die. Since it can drop Prone, has STR and 2 levels on Unconscious it s ridiculously hard to get permanently rid of at range. Unidrons keep standing, so can be killed off easily, which makes it more attractive for them to enter Dogged since they're likely to die either way.

    I'm glad Karakuri don't have Missile Launchers or Sniper Rifles, because they're obnoxious to get rid of and it would be quite broken.
    Being able to drop Prone is a very important tactical tool. One of the bigger weakpoints of TAGs is that they can't.

    I'm not happy about the Daiyokai. He turned out to be a boring bullet sponge and decently capable gunner instead of something inspired. Imho completely obsolete as a solo piece and only worth it for the Domaru he takes for a walk.

    To be actually a good troop on his own he would have needed 6-4 Movement as well as CC23 or MA3 with his current Profile. With that you would actually have a reasons to spend Orders on him alone.
     
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  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I played him a smaller game and it went pretty well. He's an excellent option if you want the beefiness of the Domaru core but don't have the points for all it, IMO, and JSA was sorely lacking in big weapons platforms (and still kind of is, until we know what's happening to a lot of our units). I think an HMG for 2 SWC would have rounded him out a lot more, but probably would have made him feel like "JSA Taskmaster" (which he already kind of does.) Better CC and Assault would have been really cool, especially if it had been a 6-4 Assault. I would pay 60-65 points for that package.

    It seems like a really good piece if you want to play swarmier JSA (14+ orders) -- take your Keisotsu core, your Ryukens, your bikes, Yojimbo, midfield Ninjas, your doc and engineer, and you should still be able get your mileage out of him. Before, there weren't many options for that role besides going all the way in a Domaru/Haramaki core, taking a Domaru duo (and paying 2 SWC for a BS12 spitfire), or going all the way up to the O-Yoroi.
     
    #86 meikyoushisui, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  7. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    @Teslarod
    Why are you pitching me this? I dont get your point. I talked about giving the the Option of the Marksman skill. Because it would fix a lot of there weaknesses. You are talking about Core teams and Heavy weapons.

    Going Prone Most often comes into play when highs are involves. Going Prone can be nice but Karakuri typically dont stand on rooftops because the have kind of short range.
     
  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Ah okay, point taken.
    I was trying to give you an example why Karakuri as HI and Karakuri as Remotes would be completely different troops. Everything changes depending on if you can go Prone or not. Certain weapons get way better, Engineer revivial gets better, Dogged becomes more of a choice. On the other side Marksmanship would turn Karakuri into Active Turn monsters, Marksmanship Level2 doesn't exist on BS13 troops (yet), something like that usually has a reason.

    TL:DR Remote Karakuri aren't Karakuri anymore.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    I agree that making Karakuri REMs would fundamentally change them, IMO for the worse.
     
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't know about "fundamentally". They would be worse at dodging (which they already should rarely do as it is) but would make up for it with either Assisted Fire or Overclock. I don't prone my Karakuri often because usually I am pushing them into the midfield.
     
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  11. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    [​IMG]
    I think there is some super interesting stuff in the Links now.

    Domaru in Karakuri. Its Plane Interesting because it actually gives them the Heavy weapon (aka damage buff) we where talking about. I didn't notice.
    and Keisotsu. Sound very efficient with 3 Cheep duds, the Msv2 Bs 12 Kempeitei and a heavy weapon Bs12 2W Domaru. I expect this to be Quiet strong.
    Miyamoto Link. Just a Harris with Tanko we dot know to much about but +1B Miyamoto will defend Points even harder. Its Viability depends on the Point Cost of the Tanko though.
     
  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Daiyokai seems good to me.

    A very tough trooper, good firepower (esp. for JSA), CC capability against CC-incapable troops, and some very desirable skills (Stealth on a HI, and V:NWI). I will push it up the board and then put it in suppression to hold a zone. Think that he will do a very effective job at that, tbh, and even if someone tries to engage him outside of his suppression range, the Panzerfaust and a PH of 14 give other options.
     
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  13. Erethros

    Erethros Well-Known Member

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    Why take Shinobu over Oniwaban?

    Because Shinobu has a Combi Rifle

    A Sup. Infiltrator with 0-40 range who shots well used at BS14 and imposing a -9.... and a -12 the first shot.
     
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  14. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    I'd take her over the Oniwaban just for the increased percentage of success when using Sup. Infiltration and the better chances to score a Crit in CC.

    Oh, and Smoke.
     
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  15. geniusloci

    geniusloci Member

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    I'm not sure what is this competitive scene that complained about Oniwaban being extremely expensive (compared to what?), but your suggestions just don’t make sense. Losing Superior Infiltration or the mono blade? What's the point, it's exactly his infiltration level that makes him such a good tool. Killing 3+ lined up troops with someone that's already part of the psychological warfare isn't some rare sight, from all the games I used Oniwaban BSG he failed miserably only once, when he got chewed by some Natural Warior. Mono blade fits thematically and makes him viable vs. things most troops can't touch up close with impunity (tags, heavy armor).

    Smoke we already have, no point doubling the role of Shinobu and Saito, with Saito being effective access to smoke and doubling the Shinobu for less points.


    Mostly your opinion and mostly false. Like what?
    - Superior Infiltration - check, using it every time
    - TO - check, same
    - BSG - check, same
    - CC - check, often
    - Mono blade - check, depends , yet it won't cost much less without it anyway.

    Ninjas are not Oni, please. To me it seems you want a Ninja with BSG. Let's see how much the Combi/AP(Shock) ninja costs and try to calculate how much the BSG and Sup. Infiltration would take from the remaining 7 points difference. The CC/MA/Kinematica diffrence probably amounts to a point or so.A ninja for 39 doubling Oniwaban on 8/10 won't see much more play time than the Oni.

    JSA has been on the bottom for a whole host of reasons and none of them has been Oniwaban's fault. If anything he's seen play in YJ vanilla list as much as in JSA only.
     
    #95 geniusloci, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  16. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    For those looking to make JSA more mainstream... My advice is that you're looking at the wrong force.

    This is one of the most skewed playstyle sectorials in the game, right up there with Steel Phalanx or Shasvaastii. If you're looking for an army with point efficient gunfighting choices, or things that are "more lethal at shooting", you're 100% looking at the wrong force. The bare bones Camo/TO Camo boarding shotgun unit with a moderate price isn't going to be found here.

    That doesn't mean that JSA doesn't have well-rounded units that are very well min-maxed for their cost (Rui Shi, Ryuken-9) but ultimately that's not really what this army is about.

    Just some thoughts, playing with and against JSA:


    Oniwaban: I like the distinct niche that both profiles have over Shinobu. The SMG is almost two Regular Orders cheaper, is nearly as good at hunting a big target, and keeps the versatility of different ammo types on the SMG. I think these are reasonable tradeoffs vs Shinobu's smoke.

    The boarding shotgun is a different beast, and plays a different role. Shinobu is a single target obliterator, but the boarding shotgun Oniwaban can handle single targets, multiple targets, and does a better job threatening cheerleaders than either the SMG Oni or Shinobu.

    I'll be happy to put them all on the table. The 1 SWC LT Oniwaban isn't bad either, simply given that Camo LTs who can survive in CC have a valuable role in some ITS missions.

    As for using the Oniwaban, it depends a lot on the mission and the matchup.

    If you're saying you'll never use him, you probably haven't seen the many ITS applications he's useful for. If you're playing Rescue, Unmasking, Trans Matrix, Capture and Protect, Biotechvore, Decapitation, Firefight, or any of several other missions, then the Oniwaban's toolkit is quite valuable. Half the time, the Oniwaban's value isn't in doing damage. This season has a lot of missions that reward units that start so far up the field, and can sit in the opponent's half of the table without needing to receive any orders to get there.

    The big incentive here too is that you don't just rely on one of them making their Superior Infiltration roll... You either take two of them, to give yourself a 93.75% chance of landing one where you want it, or you settle for standard Infiltration to avoid the risk of failure.

    Once you reveal, you don't wander into a bunkered DZ, trying to crack someone's Turn 1 defensive deployment. You let the game unravel a bit, let turns progress, until you can have the Oniwaban shoot or get into CC from behind enemy units that have advanced into the midfield.

    Lastly, you don't use the Oniwaban in a vacuum. You pair him with other units for max effect, as with any Infinity unit. If he doesn't have smoke, use Yojimbo to place it for you... He's fast enough to get pretty much anywhere using his Impetuous, plus a couple of Orders from your pool. Use a Ryuken-9 SMG to give the Oniwaban a minefield to retreat to, or risk herself shooting/suppressing other units to give the Oniwaban room to operate.

    Karakuri: The best (and worst) aspect of Karakuri is their extreme versatility. They don't seem very lethal in a gunfight, and this is true. And they don't seem very resilient as well. But when you're watching them soak Fire/DA hits that would normally turn Heavy Infantry into mush, while being able to Chain Rifle skirmsihers in the face/churn out Mk12 rounds at medium range, you'll get the idea. They're very good attrition pieces, because they almost always force the opponent to expend multiple Orders/succeed with multiple AROs just take them down.

    Most gamers hate versatile choice, therefore Karakuri will never stand out for them. But if you like a unit that can do everything, Karakuri are great. From an opposing standpoint, they're very hard to contain simply because they do have such a huge range of options.
     
    -Ghost-, Solar, chromedog and 4 others like this.
  17. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    -Compared to Fiday, Foxtrot, Speculo ect. There a more assassin-type troops that are way cheaper (and therefore better) than the Oniwaban

    -We have a lot of cc units that can touch heavy arm units.





    - Superior Infiltration - works 4/5 times; is mostly used as normal infiltration (all little less even Ph: 14=70%). So why pay the extra points?

    - TO - Yes it is used regular, but a lot off stuff can play around it. (Msv2, Shotguns, Flamethrowers, ect.) He has no defences beyond the To. (The other two have smoke and Suppressive fire)

    - BSG – That is why u even consider him

    - CC - with 4Ince thread range is Questionable he gets there without help. Shinbo and Saito do it way more reliable.

    - Mono blade - same as CC.





    These Points a Purely based your on Assumption. My Assumption is that the Mono is worth 7 something points. I only brout up what i would drop because Mahtamori wanted to know what i would drop.



    So what did in your opinion?



    @barakiel

    For those looking to make JSA more mainstream... My advice is that you're looking at the wrong force.

    I think the Players as well as Cb don't want a huge difference in Power between the forces. It is fair game to dicuss what profiles could use an update and how they compere to other forces. Dont give up Jsa can be good XD.



    Oniwaban: Those a actually very fair points. What bugs me a little is that we have no problem getting rid of Cheerleaders. (Areggoto, Nanijas ,many RL/HML). Also taking two Oniwabans seems like madness(but fun XD) and almost everything that is is true for the Oni is also true for Shinbo/Saito

    A huge point of my argument is that he just doesn't compare well to them.





    Karakuri: My initial concern was that the Haris was not relay worth it before the update. At 120p (Edit: 111p)it seemed a bit lack luster when compered to other Hi haris. But they got a Huge buff since you can know include a Domaru. Either less Point or a Heavy weapon. These Girls might see more Play.

    I said it before: I like the Mk12 Karakuri a lot.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    An Oniwaban has a 12 inch threat range for assassination.

    Mono is only costed a couple more points than explosive. Notice Shinobu gets a nanopulser, MA5, Superior Infiltration, +1WIP and +3BTS, and an addition level of Kinematica over Saito for 8 points more on top of the Monofilament, meaning mono can't possible be more than 2 points more than explosive (if everything else I've listed is 1 point only.)

    The absolute worst line troops in the game -- Fusiliers are 10 points and BS12, Grunts are 10 points for ARM3 and Shock Immunity with BS11 (trading for 4-2 move.) Keisotsu are so completely unreliable. This is probably one of the reasons they reworked the Keisotsu special core to include a Domaru or 2 Kempei (with better firepower on the Kempei now).

    The worst average BS in the game. JSA has a single BS14 unit right now, and it's a TAG. The only BS13 options are the Haramaki (now dead) and the Karakuri. A 38 point Domaru with a Spitfire has BS12, which may be the worst of any HI with that weapon option. The Daiyokai seems specifically to have been designed to fill this role but it's still BS13.

    The lack of smoke in a faction based so heavily on CC options. Yojimbo is basically an auto-include in JSA for being the cheapest smoke. I am curious if the Aragoto will be reworked to have smoke grenades.

    Lack of useful ARO pieces besides linked Keisotsu or Samurai link Missile Launchers, and Missiles aren't on the Tanko dossier (not final, but doesn't make me feel great.) Ninja sniper is awful and the Raiden was already meh because you were losing the Surprise Shot, which is half of the advantage of limited camo. It looks like the new Ryuken SMG was designed to fill this slot.

    Lack of decent specialists for less than 30 points. Ninja and Aragoto both have very limited specialist options (all hackers) and already have to be the backbone of button-pushing. The lack of 20-25 point type one-off specialists is painful in ITS missions. I don't need something as good as a Hunzakut, but some infiltrating specialists that included an FO, Deployable Repeater, Pitcher, etc. would make it much more playable. This is a place we haven't seen improvements on in new profiles -- I was really hoping the Ryuken would be a variety profile like Order Seargents for JSA, because that would fit perfectly, IMO.

    The standout profiles in Vanilla weren't stand-out because of their amazing abilities, they were standouts because they were cheaper (doctor and engineer), provided threats deep on the other side of the field (Oniwaban and Ninja) or were dirt cheap for their kit (Raiden HRL Minelayer.)
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I saw it mentioned redesigned Rui Shi profile(s). Have we heard anything about what that means?
     
  20. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Interesting discussion. I've only recently come to see the light for Oniwaban, so I'm happy to discuss them a bit.

    Foxtrot as an assassination piece? Am a little confused on this one.

    Speculo is 1 SWC and 34/35 SWC for its profiles (compared to 0 SWC/37 for the SMG Oniwaban) so I don't think it's much cheaper. That 1 SWC is pretty important.

    The Fiday also loses out quite a bit fighting aliens, whereas Hidden Deployment and TO remain very strong regardless of opponent.

    So I wouldn't definitively say any of them are better. Impersonators in themselves are a very rare unit type. I think their biggest advantage is how freely they can deploy, but when you break down their stats themselves, they're actually pretty indifferent combatants. They rely a lot on going after cheap/unskilled enemies, or relying on Surprise Attack/shotgun blasts. The Oniwaban can go after pretty much anything, and brings the same shotgun as well, plus the SMG can threaten/crack hard targets very effectively.

    True, but the Order efficiency for delivering them is a big challenge. Running a Domaru or Shikami across the table through enemy fire to hit a TAG may require an entire turn's worth of Orders, especially if you're clearing enemy overwatch units, sweeping mines in the midfield, laying smoke, etc.

    The Oniwaban can be in B2B with an enemy unit in a handful of Orders, and the opponent doesn't know it's coming. The opponent will see the Superior Infiltration roll, but won't know where or how you've deployed that Oniwaban.


    Hmm? Oniwaban is PH12 + 3 for Superior Infiltration = 15, or 75% chance.

    I think Sup Infiltration depends a lot on the mission. If you play Rescue, Capture and Protect, Unmasking, Transmission Matrix, etc. then it's very, very worthwhile to use Superior Infiltration. In fact, it puts JSA into the higher echelons of competitive viability for these missions.

    Hidden Deployment is the game's best defensive ability. The SMG loadout can suppress, and is much better at suppression than any of the other units you've mentioned. Suppressing with Impersonators is risky, just because they're not stacking modifiers in nearly the same way.

    Saito doesn't have Superior Infiltration, though I do agree he's amazing for his cost. Shinobu's a pretty expensive upgrade, which I think helps differentiate her from regular Oniwaban. Smoke is amazing, and Oniwaban lack that important tool, but that's why they're a lot cheaper than Shinobu is.
     
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