So ... it has to be a sub-18-points model that kills Jazz? And you have to do it with one order? Since setting up the repeater net to get everywhere and to spotlight everyone and to hit him with GML costs more than 1 order as well. And the Drop Trooper will only kill a single model? And Jazz is jolly good at shooting, with her BS11. Even in a link she's not good. And let's not forget it: When she's in a link, she's 22 points ... so ... worth a drop trooper? YOU do shoot TAGs cause you have no other means. And dunno, some Hackers have AP for their programs, if you wanna bruteforce yourself through Jazz. Both comments don't exclude each other. I don't defend GMLs. I don't use them. Maybe "Guided" is too good. Possible. And still the argument stands "you don't hack a hacker". "Jazz doesn't break balance" doesn't mean "Guided is not too good." Why should it? What you don't seem to get. After all these postings and although I wrote it several times: If you have a problem with "Guided" or GML in general ... you have problem with Guided or GML, not with Jazz. Jazz does not mean Guided and Jazz does not use Guided. If the Guided rule is too good or the GML is too good, you should address this, not blame it on Jazz. Like it was said before, the same trick can be pulled of with other hackers, Valerya for instance, Mary (you don't have to be linked to spotlight someone): Kerr-Nau, Bit & Kiss, Dartok for CA Barid, Druze for Haqq Danavas, Thamyris, Scylla for Aleph Uhahu for Starco You wanna get rid of all hackers with Pitcher that are maybe linkable (not all of them are, but most of them)? Wouldn't it be easier to directly address your problem? If your problem is GML ... you should call it that way: Say it with me: "My .... problem ... is ... GML .... not .... Jazz." And if you have a problem with the Tinbot -6 on Jazz' link. You should demand to make her not linkable. Again it's not Jazz, she has no Tinbot. Albedo is a joke and not everyone has access to White Noise Yes, you know everything. How could I doubt this. You are the one, the only one, who knows ... (insert reverberation) ... EVERYTHING. Sorry for the polemic ... SCNR (edit: but really ... Albedo? I found only 3 units having access to it and only 2 factions. Hardly something most players have access to or can even think about. And even if you have Albedo, you have to use it during your first turn, otherwise ... it wears off. Do the Kamau's boni wear off? Albedo ... almost ridiculous \edit) Do you sometimes read what others write? I know what I wrote 'cause I was sitting there when I wrote it: "I did not say that KHD "should" not be able to kill hackers, I say that KHD "are" not able to (reliably) kill (topnotch) hackers." You see the difference? Really? I didn't notice. Did I somewhere say she's not good or efficient? I only say she doesn't break balance, cause if she would not be there, it would just be the same. Nomads would have hacking superiority. It wouldn't make any difference. And, I already said it several times, you could even give her for free in every Nomads list and it wouldn't break the balance. The only difference it makes is, Nomads would have another 18 (or 22) points for spending in offensive things Okay, there would be one more difference, you would whine about Valerya doing the Guided Missle Trick, cause she is linkable, has a pitcher and with the Tinbot, she still is hard to kill. Since constant dripping wears away the stone ... let's repeat it another time ... together: "My .... problem ... is ... GML .... not .... Jazz."
Nope! They still exist in the game. Presenting them as being equally good for their points value like CB does is the "bad faith" argument in this context.
I'd be willing to accept that risk if using GML through a repeater network came with similar risks. It doesn't. You're saying it's right and good that players using a repeater network + BTS 6-9 hacker should have amazing options for little to no risk, but that the people playing against them should have to take significant risks just to bring things back to a fair fight (because Nomads can still win just by shooting everything relevant with the Szalamandra, or now, Gator that they inevitably bring). Tell that to the people wanting low-risk noninteractive plays like Pheroware, N3 Jammers, or N4 GML. Your argument is that "players using repeater networks and GML should have low-risk plays, and if people can't handle the fact that those lists have an unearned advantage they shouldn't be playing Infinity." Some people upthread disagreed, idk. Seems to be up to debate.
If you claim that something is over the average and attempt to prove it by comparing it to something under the average, you are arguing in bad faith. "Kaitok is OP and power creep because it compares favourably to a Moblot" Maybe Kaitok is OP, but comparing stuff to a Moblot and seeing that it is better than a Moblot, does not mean the compared stuff is OP. Moblot is bad so almost anything looks very good in comparison.
Okay, but I compared it to the Guijia earlier, a unit that I assume most would figure is a solid and versatile MBT at this point. And it still comes up wildly short against the Gator.
The issue is that if Jazz is all-powerful in hacking, games involving her and her Morans degenerate into do you successfully assassinate her or not. This is an extremely similar play pattern to the Kamau, which disregards all elements of the game except can you answer this asshole? If you have the tools to do so, great! If not, might as well pack up now. I've certainly heard you complain about the Kamau, if you try and see Jazz with Morans in the same light you might understand the other point of view better. Huge areas of the table become no-go zones by virtue of her being alive in a corner someplace. If she is immune to hacking, which is what is being proposed (and which is arguably true in a Corregidor link), those areas are denied until you take her out, and so a gigantic amount of the decision making and strategy of the game collapses into a simple can you get to her, or do you lose? This is all set up turn zero, with three extremely optimized and useful profiles that you are happy to run anyway. Re - the other point, at least one poster said they would take her for 30 points in Corregidor, and I would do so as well. In that faction she single handedly transforms them into a hacking force. But not in Nomads, not for 30+.
I want to reiterate that if this gameplay was so predominant and effective we would have threads on threads about it, it is not a top tier strategy and it is not a new strategy, it is something done from first edition, since we do not hear about it there must be a reason for this. Secondly I do not think any of the additions Corregidor got as part of its "spotlight", or rebalance or whatever you want to call the "we work on this sectorial now" has in any way affected or changed the core restrictions the sectorial had from the start, if nothing else bandits are the most disruptive unit introduced to Corregidor.
I didn't say anything of the sort. Take another try at my last post and get back to me when you've read it more thoroughly. As people upthread have noted, it takes more orders to deal with a repeater network than to skeet it out. As for your other question, I'll repeat. I didn't say anything of the sort. Take another try at my last post and get back to me when you've read it more thoroughly. Up until recently, she was BS 14 in a core fireteam, B2, vs. probably BS 12-13 for the drop trooper. If you count the chance of dropping in correctly as well as winning the FtF roll, it's lower than 50%. So more than a 50% chance of just throwing away your 25-30 point model for a *chance* of removing the low-risk brain-dead GML play. Since you didn't cotton on to that, I'd suggest listening more and talking less. Or because sometimes it's the most efficient option. Yes, I damn well *will* blast a TAG to bits with a Marksmanship Unidron Plasma Sniper or K1 combi. Those are oftentimes great options. Mostly in Nomads. And nothing in OCF, despite them being a faction that was able to handle enemy well in N3. Like I've mentioned, not a lot of attention was put into balancing hacking in N4, more just reacting to players who were running away from interaction and fair play in N3. No it does not, because otherwise there's no risk to expanding your repeater network. If Jazz didn't break balance she wouldn't be the go-to hacker in Corregidor and vanilla Nomads. I have a problem with both. Even if GML didn't exist, she should still have to worry about enemy hackers, especially KHDs. Nah. I want a KHD in a repeater zone to be a significant ARO threat to enemy hackers. No. Given that you forgot that Spotlight works on non-hackable things, maybe don't make assumptions about the game when it's clear your knowledge base is not there. I have a problem with Jazz in general. She's a problem in Vanilla Nomads too. Oh, maybe Albedo isn't meant to counter MSV units then, just like KHDs aren't meant to counter hackers. I mean at least I knew that Spotlight worked on non-hackable things. Yes, I agree with that statement. The issue is you disagree with my statement that is "KHDs *should* be able to threaten top-tier hackers. Don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said, and given that you're displaying a startling lack of understanding about the game, don't presume to second-guess *my* understanding of it.
No, because they exist within the points system, and my point is that CB should have costed the models involved differently. It's not a bad faith argument to say "this model is too powerful for its points, and this one is weaker." You're just saying it's wrong to point that out.
Try before N4 even dropped, I was bitching about it being a problem as soon as we had hacking spoilers because pitchers and the new Oblivion instantly invalidated Sun Tze. EDIT: Found it, hate to say I told everyone so 6 weeks before N4 even arrived it was that fucking obvious it was going to become a problem.
Indeed as was the case with first edition, second edition and N3, its a basic tactical play all factions can more or less do and the new players stumble into it sooner or later, then they usually adapt. But, if it remains so strong people cannot adapt to it, then it would be a constant and recurring theme in the complains.
Well, here we are well into N4 and 8 pages into a "Nerf Nomads" thread. People don't seem to have been able to adapt since :P
I've made threads on it. You're in one right now that someone else made. People talk about it on other outlets when they're not banned by people who don't want to hear it. You are entirely misunderstanding the mechanics involved, then. First of all, it *is* a top tier strategy - Lobo0705, currently top-ranked player in the world, uses it quite frequently. Second, the mechanics were changed in N4 to make it much more viable in a number of ways. Do you understand that, especially that last bit about the changes in N4? Because if you don't, it explains why you're confused about this situation - taking a sober look at how hacking changed in N4 is important for understanding *why* it's a top-tier strategy at the moment. I think you're flat-out wrong on this. In N3 Corregidor did not have Hacking Device Plus, access to White Noise, Mimetism -6 core linkable gunfighters, or big, tough TAGs. This has changed, alongside a Space Marine-like endless procession of releases for the faction.
Yes, I'm indeed more often playing casually, but why would it matter here? The topic (and Hecaton's whining) is about Nomads/CJC allegedly ruining the game, and he is talking about half of his games being against : So either he is encountering 50% of CJC players in his tournaments (wow, bad luck), or he is off-topic and should open another thread to complain about repeaters/GML specifically. Because this is obviously by no mean a nomad-specific strategy... Also proof that Jazz isn't the issue here. If you're not being of bad faith, why not comparing the Gator to the Raicho instead of the Guija? Maybe because then your little story isn't holding anymore and it appears that there is nothing that catastrophic with the Gator's profile... Slightly overpowered/undercosted? Sure. Gamebreaking? ROFL.
I think Jazz is good, but she still can't beat bullets. If she warps anything, she makes the Alguacil hacker option obsolete. The GML strat has been around at least N2 from what I heard(I started playing at the beginning of N3, and heard the stories from those players). If this is really a problem, its not because of Jazz, its because Targeting state doesn't fall off at the end of turn anymore. You can do GML tricks with a Forward Observer as well. I think the most disruptive unit in Corregidor atm is Carlota, because that threat forces your opponent to defend inside their deployment zone or get wrecked.
Some people at least are complaining, my point is it is not widespread, just a focused group, maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong, maybe the two years pause has stopped crucial data from showing up, maybe there are other reasons, I do not know, what I do know is that it does not follow the typical trends of a major issue.
I can't believe I'm going to actually defend Hecaton here, but the guy clearly is talking about competitive play. In casual play I often agree on playing purposefully stupid lists like 'All HI' or 'Everyone plays double TAG' and that's fine. Now, if someone brings an obviously handicapped list to competitive play and gets their ass kicked, I'm not going to mock the person for it. But I will take them aside later and go 'hey mate, you might want to optimize your list'. And when we talk 'optimized lists', problems do crop up. It can be stuff like an army having only one 'viable' build, or one strategy, in this case the GML+pitcher thing, being dominant. And I do agree GML is an annoying thing. I've been on the receiving end of it twice only and both times I wanted to rip my hairs off because it's just boring. It's like playing warhammer. "are you done?" "Yes." "Ok, now I'm gonna play my turn" "Right, I'll go take a leak, let me know what saves I have to roll when I come back"
What was the adaptation exactly? I've seen three, none of which improve the game and I'm wondering if you know any more?. A) Don't play it because the games are shit. B) Note who plays it and avoid them, or avoid competitive play. C) Marker state everything good and disregard all units and factions that cannot do this, or play those factions writing off games against pitcher/GML. Woo, fantastic countermeasures, fun game.. If camospam becomes too prevalent, you can add sensor or warbands or whatever to go find them, and you can screen your deployment zone to stop them attacking or watch areas to slow down their runs on buttons. If TAGs are too prevalent, you can add more hackers or EM or CC or whatever, and limit your ARO exposure. But if GML pitcher becomes prevalent, what can you do? There are no units or equipment countermeasures and no meaningful strategy changes you can make. I think if you are going to argue that we have 'adapted past this so its ok' I think its reasonable enough to ask how this has been done exactly, because I sure as shit could not find an acceptable path. Forum discussions tend to be short lived, I mean, after a certain point, what is left to say? But the lifespan of that particular thread does not correspond to the lifespan of a problem. We'd need a constant supply of new users joining and feeling confident enough to understand the game and to complain to see anything like that, no matter how bad any given balance issue could get - and I don't think we have that.
