What happens if a trooper is put into a null state from a CC Attack (which counts as a kill for Predator's purpose), but then is shot or Coup de Grace'd to actually kill it? If a trooper is rendered Unconscious with a CC attack, then attacked again to kill it, does that count for two?
Honestly, the rules are a bit ambiguous on exactly what is meant by "killed". I would assume @tox is correct and that a model is considered "killed" when it enters the dead state, but I don't believe it is ever specified. Further it's ambigious what it means for a model to be in the null state at the end of the game. In some missions it's not defined (ex: Acquisition, Capture and Protect), while in other's it means the model is considered "dead" at the end of the mission (ex: Annihilation). As such I believe what would happen would be that you would NOT get credit for Predator, since the model would not have been "killed", because going into the null state doesn't count until the end of the mission. Also technically even this would not happen in Acquisition, since there is no rule in Acquisition for putting null troopers into the dead state. I think it would clean up the ITS document for the "Killing" special rule to be made a rule that applies to all scenarios, instead of appearing as a special rule for some of them. Particularly since it's definition seems to be the same in all missions. As it stands Predator is a bit ambigious.
"Killing" is a special scenario rule for a reason. It states that "incapacitated" models at the end of the game are to be considered Killed, just like (who would ever told) Dead models.
Is it? It's the same in all cases that I can find. Until the advent of Predator "Killing" didn't matter, except for the missions which included it. What is the reason for it being a special scenario rule?
Because in those Missions you score OP based on the amount of point Killed at the end of the game. Without that rules, Unconscious model would not be counted, just to say one...
For what it's worth, even in missions that don't include the Killing rule, Unconscious troopers count as casualties for Retreat and for Victory Points.
I hope you'll be able to provide a basis for such a statement, because at every other instance in the rules, killing is defined as "dead or null state."
Ok. So if it's undefined, why do you say you have a basis for defining it a particular way in your post?
No its not mate. Unc units are only ever "Killed" id Unc at the end of the game, thats defined clear as day in the ITS You put a model Unc in CC, then you dont score pred until the end of the game when it goes into the dead state
Stipulating that "killed" isn't strictly defined but should be. Everytime it's used in ITS (Assassination etc) it's taken to mean: "Cause the last transition into a Null state". So if a trooper is taken Unc in CC but later is taken Dead to a BS Attack then they were killed by the BS Attack. The reverse is also true. This is the only answer that provides consistency across all 'killed / killing' interactions. Remember that score classifieds as soon as the conditions are met. So it doesn't matter if the conditions stop being met at a later time.
So hold on I always read Predator as meaning you have to kill a model to dead state in CC to get it. That would mean: * If you put it unconcious in CC it doesnt count (even if it counts as dead at the end of the game, because it wasnt made dead in CC) * If you put a model unconcious in CC then coup de grace it, it doesnt count either (since coup explicitly doesnt count from the text). Youd have to attack the unconcious body again and succeed your roll, have them fail saves etc until they were in dead state. Is that not true?
@ijw in this wgc Infinity thread pictured below I read you as saying you have to take the enemy model to dead in CC to get the Predator classified. But above I thought you implied taking it to null, then having it considered dead at the end of the game was enough? Would you mind clarifying? I have I misread something or has something changed? Would @HellLois mind clarifying either? (I do this classified a lot when I get it ;) )
That was specifically in reply to @tox talking about VPs etc, I should have quoted his post to make that clearer. As far as I’m aware, you have to take the troopers to Dead state via CC Attack. This is because of the clause about not being able to use Coup de Grâce for the ‘kills’, when Coup de Grâce can only be done if the target is already in a Null state.
So, according to ITS 12, the objective Predator can now be achieved via Coup de Grace. Then the list of maneuvers to achieve Predator should be... Put a Normal enemy trooper into Dead state with a CC Attack. Put an Unconscious enemy trooper into Dead state with a CC Attack, which is not Coup de Grace. Put an Unconscious enemy trooper into Dead state with a CC Attack, which is Coup de Grace. Did I get it right?
I am not confident you are allowed to declare a cc attack against an unconscious model that is not a coup de grace. But other than that, this seems correct.
I'm fairly confident that taking someone to Unconscious via CC Attack and them being Unconscious at the end of the game is also a valid way to score Predator. ----- Killed is only ever defined in some missions, but it wouldn't make sense to have ot behave differently across missions. Taking Firefight for example, it would be silly if the the enemy LT considered "killed", but not "killed". The fact that predator is scored at the end of the game could be an indication of the intent aswell.
Wouldn't an unconscious trooper that is killed at the end of a game be killed by the game ending and not the CC Attack that didn't bring the trooper all the way to Killed? The reason it is scored at the end of the game would more likely be because it has two stages of completion.
