Would you use Fireteams if they had no bonuses?

I use duos reasonably frequently to get the specialist/toolbox + gun "voltron" unit blob shoved upfield.

If 3-model links lost +1 burst, I probably would've kept using them in N3, but probably not in N4. There seems to be more of a focus on jack-of-all-trade profiles in N4 like the Kosmosoldat SO, Evader AP Spitfire, whatever that PanO HRL + FO thing is called, etc, so there isn't much of a need to "voltron" more capabilities into a blob that moves up the field.

I'd still use a duo though, mostly to drag an expendable bodyguard sort of profile around to have some ablative wounds for something like the Evader.

4- and 5-model links are just like playing the game with oven mitts. It feels clumsy, unfocused, and a bit of a hot mess. I didn't like them in N3, and I still don't like them in N4. I'll use 'em if I have to though... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

I have never really liked Fireteams and thought they were too powerful from the beginning. I still can't seem to do anything against them with vanilla.

I'd like to see them get nothing more than the movement bonuses. That to me is already something over vanilla.

It used to be that Vanilla had the better choices of troops. That is not so much the case anymore. Some armies are still fine like Nomads, Haqq, and Combined, but many sectorals now have more than enough troops to do what they need to do and more.

I also think it's vastly unfair for troops that have Frenzy to have the rule ignored when in a fireteam. Who actually takes Frenzy troops and Not put it in a Fireteam if they can? And by the time they actually do Frenzy, they've probably killed most of your force.

 

I could get behind something like this. Fluff wise the idea that only non elite troops can be trained to work together and multiply each other’s effectiveness doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but balance wise I like it. 5 man core is a way to make line infantry cheerleaders relevant enough to risk using instead of just hiding them in total cover to protect the order pool. I mean , really, that’s what core links primarily were in N2.

 

Not entirely to do with bonuses but what I think would be interesting would be if fireteams worked as coordinated orders*. The limitations of coherency and composition would offset the reduced expenditure of command tokens. Obviously this concept would require some iteration to refine the balance; it might require some changes to coord orders too.

*edit for clarity - permanent coordinated orders with the fireteam leader being the spearhead, B calculated according to the number of members, etc.

 

nvm

 

I suggested this as well some time ago, and would support a change in this direction.

Also, I'd like to test what would happen if only the base unit received the bonuses, while wildcards, etc. get nothing special.

 

I'd like to see, in order to keep up with sectorals, is Vanilla armies get free Duo and Haris. No wildcards or mixed troops. I think it's possible now.

 

Hmm. Combined have no AVA 3 Haris units, Haqq have plenty. Would need an overhaul of AVA in vanilla for Haris and I'm not sure I like where that'd take the game. Vanilla isn't far behind at all in power curve.

I do think Duo should be allowed, though this, too, would involve a small amount of sanity checking.

 

This has been suggested before.

Please bear in mind that this would be more powerful in terms of killing reactive units than the current Fireteam rules, as you would almost always be able to force some unopposed rolls on the target. Although there would be a higher chance of losing one of the Fireteam members.

So yes, it would require substantial changes to Coordinated Orders.

 

They could be AVA2 Haris. Unfortunately that's the best it can get and takes up a Haris slot. So a Bao Haris is only 2. But can have more Duo.

 

Link Teams would be fine if CB would stop allowing mixed teams and got rid of the god damned Wildcard nonsense.

Nobody freaks out about a Core Link of linetroopers, or an link of all one kind of HI.

 

Riot Grrls?

 

I would use two or three model links for movement pretty extensively. I already do that in Tohaa - my aggressive triads see the burst mostly as a nice bonus, and generally care more about getting the order efficiency of moving a specialist alongside something else.

Re; the rest of the conversation, not the biggest fan of the infinite wildcard stuff. But there has to be a midway point between that and "lol you'll take your full brigada link and you'll like it!"

 

Everyone has almost equal access to powerful fireteams, generic armies being the exception. This means that taking away from fireteams hurts everyone, particularly the NA2 lists that are essentially built around the concept of the fireteam.

Mitigate the weakness instead. Let non sectorial armies use a comand token for a sort of reactive coordinated order, that let's several troopers act as a psudofireteam for one ARO, giving buffs in the form of burst and bs bonus/debuff to the enemy.

Or even just let suppressive fire be called as an ARO with a comand token.

Power creep is inevitable, so why not use it to balance itself?

 

I would use Duos and Haris teams. Cores are just too vulnerable; you need some bonuses to make them viable

Would I change the bonuses? Yes, I'd get rid of the +3 BS myself.

 

Agreed.

Although something I've been toying with is whether changing the +3 to -3 (a la Suppressive Fire) would work.
Changes it from an offensive buff to a defensive one.

Been trying to figure out what the second and third order effects would be of slapping non-MSV counterable mimetism on a fireteam though...

 

I think I’m in the same boat as other posters who would use small fireteams for order efficiency purposes.

My personal favorite “fix” for the core fireteam bonuses would be to replace the +3 five-man bonus with a flat adjustment using the new syntax, preferably: BS Attack (BS=15), Discover (+3)

The benefit there is that it provides a significant boost to cheaper troops, but there’s a diminishing return for high BS wildcards or more powerful core linkable troops. Most of the top-shelf linkable shooters are BS 13-14, so they’d still get a little bump, and allowing high-BS wildcards is less of a balance problem. Anything with BS 12 breaks even, and it provides a buff for troops that are lowly BS 10-11 line troopers—meaning SWC line troops might see a little more action. It also creates an incentive for factions with linkable high-BS shooters to deploy those troops solo or in a haris since they’ll lose less if they aren’t in a full core than they do now.

There are a couple of troops that might be too buffed by this—I’m thinking specifically of Dakinis and Moderators. In the case of Moderators, the fact that they’re each pretty squishy means taking even one out eliminates the bonus, and their linkable heavy hitters are already getting a nerf from the change, so it’s probably a wash.

Dakinis...not sure what the best option there is. They really don’t need a free +1 BS on top of the current core bonus and access to supportware/apsaras. I *think* I’d rather they just get a regular BS increase to 12 and go up in cost, so they end up breaking even?

 

I think core teams should only get one bonus. Not +3 BS AND Discover. It needs to be one or the other.

 

What if the bonus was a choice.

+3 BS or +1 B.

Or a more gradiated change.
3 man = +1 B.
4 man = +1 BS, +3 discover
5 man = +2 BS, sixth sense.