Guys, I am kinda confused. We know that White Banner was built for N4 and have a lot of unknowns. From Code 1 we know that Jujaks will be in the 20s. They are the cheap filler for Shang-Ji core of one or two. For Shang-Jis, we are missing a lot of data for N4. But from the data we have, WB will have a 6-2 heavy link with tin bots, engineer, Heavy Flamers, TA, and AP HMG. That seems very unique. Didn't we learn any from the IA about rushing to conclusions before seeing everything?
Well, it's hard not to point out the fun in how you assume Jujak will be in the 20s while cautioning against rushing to conclusions. But as to your question, for me IA turned out to be a fairly significant disappointment after testing it for a year so I am not sure what you mean with "rushing to conclusions" or in what way?
I'm talking about it NOW. Not in the future which is uncertain. Yes, many of those things may/probably will happen. But I can only talk about it as it is at this moment. As of now, it's disappointing for me. As said by others, they are doing ok with it. I really hoping that when N4 comes around that it will be better.
Do you agree that initial thoughts on IA were short sided? (https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/invincible-army-post-mortem.25451/) You are correct that I am making an assumption that points costs will be comparable between N4 and C1. I totally admit I could be wrong. @Space Ranger. Fair enough. I agree that a few armies have some issues during this transition period. Like you, I am hopeful that N4 will resolve some on the Shang-Ji link team Issue. Currently, costs of Jujaks seem too high using N3 rules for the planned link filler role. Personally, I am hoping that N4 changes will help improve the Khawarijs link team. The models are great and would like using them as a core to be more viable.
I'm with @Mahtamori on this. The disappointment in the initial reaction (ignoring usual hyperbole) about IA has been sustained through a year's playtest. Units that were poorly designed are still poorly designed. Units and strategies that are optimal are still optimal. The confused design mentality still hasn't been addressed or explained. If anything, IA as an example makes me more worried that the gaps and problems with WBA won't be addressed come N4. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed playing both sectorials. As has already been mentioned, most comments were specifically focused on WBA as an N3 sectorial. Equally, many of the problems that have been brushed off as "they'll solve that in N4" needn't have existed in N3. Jujak was a brand new unit. It could have been more cheaply priced to make it work in the link as you suggest, then have a price adjustment in N4. Or just given it core now and adjusted it come N4 rather than give us an overly expensive fireteam. Shang Ji could have had (more) sectorial specific profiles to make it work the way its supposed to in N4 without impacting vanilla, etc. Or just accepted it as sub par for N3 until its N4 pricing/rules update makes it relevant and this gets justified in the time skip fluff. In fact, any design change decisions they (may) have waiting for N4 could have been justified during the time skip that'll take place. Instead it seems they took an N4 sectorial and cut holes in it until it fit N3. Playing it feels they didn't even bother to sand the edges.
It feels so bizarre that CB has been trying to push shang jis like they are cool for the past two sectorials when they didnt even sell* a mini for it until Beyomd Kaldtrstsggfhom and they've been bad since N3. Just screaming "you should like the shang ji" while givin no reasons to like it. *old shang ji went oop when red veil showed up
I felt the same way about the SJ. They did little changes and seemed to make them out to be good but yet they didn't even make a figure for them.
I find most of the complaints you guys mention to be about SJ/Jujak issues, which to me is quite strange considering I don’t feel like that is the selling point of the faction at all. It is like Jann’s being in RTF, pointless HI being forced into a Sectorial it has no business in. HI have always had issues, but at least this sectorial has the Dao Fei and SJ/Qing in a Zhanshi link to see play. In all my RTF games, never have I even felt the need to include Janns/Al Fasid. (Edit to include I feel bad for the Jujak, no idea when I will use him unless things change in N4.) WB excels in having a good Zhanshi soup link while also getting good camo/midfield game with a side of warbands.
Oh, right. Didn't realise you were directing it specifically at Triumph. On the other hand, reading his pre-post mortem post again and the only two thing he got totally wrong was basically that Yan Huo Neuro didn't get to be linkable. He was even a lot kinder to the Hulang and Zhencha than the community has been since IA got the actual release... Post has been updated since originally posted, but doesn't seem like it was re-written with post-release info. I do really hope that the general gist of points from C1 carries over, though, even though it seems largely to be a reduction based on N3 points cost rather than a restructuring of ability costs (and by that I mean, a unit that used to cost 30 seems to cost 25 in C1, regardless of what made it cost 30 and a unit that used to cost 50 costs 40 in C1).
You're not wrong, it is mostly a Shanger issue, but while I don't know RTF too intimately, RTF has more units in it than WB and fewer of those units are one-AVA characters. There is versatility and variety to be had from that even if the 3-5 additional units aren't amazing. Because both IA and WB are fairly unit-poor sectorials, each bad unit is going to affect the sectorial more. Now, again, I don't know what makes RTF tick or anything, but imagine the sectorial without Tuareg, Naffatun or Khawariji (but Tarik is still in) and you're starting to get to the slightly claustrophobic level of units that are the recent Yu Jing sectorials. Oh, and Ghulam at AVA 4, of course. (Then imagine all mercenary NA2 sectorials combined as a single sectorial without any Wildcards and you get ISS... the contrast is amazing :p )
Well I can add in another! lol Lieutenants, I find them a bit limiting. Not as bad as like Ikari. If you discount the ones that cost SWC for nothing added like Tiger and Guilang, that leaves you with only Zhanshi, Shang Ji, Jujak and Daofei. I've heard the Daofei Spitifire Lt. is popular but I haven't tried him yet. For a SJ you usually want to take advantage of the things the Lt. doesn't have, HMG, HRL, Hacker etc.The same might be said for the Jujak as well. Then there's the Daofei, again who would take just a plain multi-rifle Daofei? That kind leaves you with the Zhanshi. Edit: I forgot Gao. They do entice you to take him as a Lt. but he's already such a big target. I don't want to make things worse by adding Loss of Lt. to loosing an expensive peice. So i'd like maybe a Ye Mao, Tian Gou, or Hundun Lt.
Actually WB has more units than Ramah, and Ramah has more characters than WB. It still feels like they get more options because everyone and his mother counts as a ghulam and they have a useless Zayedhan only fireteam in there, but technically they get less stuff. Also, can't believe 2020 made it so we are annoyed by not being able to put more zanshi on our lists.
Projecting point costs from C1 to N4 seems too wishful since we already have those units in N3 I would be surprised if there are any major points changes in N4 anywhere. Armies in Infinity having more than ONE competetively playable/optimized core team are an exception, not a rule. Almost everyone uses the cheapest one with premium wildcards and it is the way the game progresses.
Ah, true true, I must've had a filter active for both sectorials without noticing it when I checked yesterday, they both have more non-characters now that I check today. Ghulam are great, I love having a link of them when playing Dahshat, but you know, just because one sectorial has great links or loadouts for their most basic units doesn't mean ours has to. My one complaint with Zhanshi is that they bleed a point for each one you get that doesn't actually grant the trooper any benefit, and that's really all that needs to be addressed considering they are a trooper whose primary function is to be cheap (painting a camo on a trooper so that they blend in with the table is a much greater benefit than having an extra CC).
My 2 cents after 5-6 games on TTS with WB: - hard to find a good lieutenant build - miss higher AVA on zhanshis. Never thought i would say that ! - core links builds have been....boring - harris and duo links have been fun
I don't necessarily care about optimized. I would have been happier if they had went with a strait Shang Ji, Jujak, Ye Mao, Zhanshi core with nothing special in them. Then I would have at least and 4 different point ranges of core teams I could try. It's pretty disappointing when WF got 4 Core, include Vargar, which are almost the equivalent to the Ye Mao (Albedo, Super Jump, Medium Elite). Vargar also have Haris native to all of them just like the Ye Mao. Also, 5 special Core. Why would Vargar get the ability and Ye Mao not? I really hope they simplify the rules for fireteams. Looking through the wiki list is like trying to figure out coding.
Yes and all SWF cores that are not fusiliers+wildcards will never see serious play, just as Wildcats or Bolts that have a theoretical core option. Jujaks are similar to Hortlaks or Haidao - very optimized linkfillers for more expensive HIs - so it makes no sense for them to have their own fireteam.
SWF also didn't get a single AD trooper and no marker states except for the Kunai Ninja. Maybe their better Fireteams are to balance not having those things. WB seems like a sectorial where you can take some of the best units from Vanilla (Tigers, Daofei, Guilang, Rui Shi+Monks combo) and back it up with a defensive LI Fireteam, and it achieves that pretty damn well IMO
