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Invincible Army post mortem

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Let's go over the units

    Zhanshi: Fireteam's kinda standard-ish except the 5th member has to be some kind of wildcard. The cheapest choice is a Son-Bae ML and 4 Zhanshi, one of them carrying a ML for 66pts. Son-Bae's interesting because you can hit it up with Marksmanship supportware from a hacker and then in the link it's a Burst 2 BS18 ML that doesn't care about cover at all. That's actually pretty neat, to answer the question you had elsewhere @Mahtamori

    Fitting a hacker Zhanshi in is problematic, but on the other hand the Daoying can do LT supportware quite well.


    Shang Ji: Well. We've waited a long time and unfortunately these guys have the same problem as the Ninja. There's 1 good profile and many, many, shitty profiles. The unfortunate truth of the matter is the Shang Ji are carrying shitty bloated stats for no reason and it jacks their cost and this is coupled by being outpriced by Zuyong which we'll cover in a moment. Basically anything the Shang Ji do the Zuyong do the same for less points.

    The one good profile is the Tactical Awareness Spitfire. There's a pretty good argument to deploy it near a Zhanshi defensive link team, wait for the guys on ARO duty to get picked off, then reform the link with the Shang Ji in charge and just have the rest of the Zhanshi follow him around as a cheap source of bodies for the link team buffs.


    Zuyong: So we were pretty interested in the Shang Ji Tactical Awareness Spitfire profile, and then the Zuyongs came along with a Tactical Awareness HMG profile who costs 0.5 LESS SWC and suddenly everyone was back to not giving a shit about the Shang Ji. Unfortunate, but it is what it is. Overall, solid link team options, solid weapon options, fantastic SWC discounts on their workhorse weapon the HMG, and lots of potential for Wildcards flexing in and out of the link to give you different options and access to Number 2. Can't really complain when they can form 6 order HI Fireteams like this for a bargain cost, that even bring Deflector 2 and KHD support while they're at it, and the whole link only costs 2 SWC.

    Zuyong Link
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)

    2 SWC | 133 Points

    You can even do cute shit like move with the Pango ahead of the KHD and engage enemy hackers through your own repeater with the second half of the order to pick up Firewall bonuses that way.


    Tai Sheng: Not exactly cheap but I don't hate her when you consider NCO will increase the link team's order efficiency. A heavy infantry link that can spend 13 orders is something quite unique.

    A BS14 Mk12 isn't a bad backup weapon for a link to have incase the primary gunner goes down, and it comes with the advantage of being base BS14 with some link bonuses which is nothing to be sniffed at. That or if you want to save some SWC she can be used to bring a Tinbot to the link with no SWC cost instead of the basic Zuyong one.


    Yan Huo: The Multi HMG isn't too exciting given that already have pretty interesting HMG link options in the Zuyong, it's not bad either though. On the other hand, the FTO 2 ML option is something else, the only Burst 3 ML in the game. The trick of course is the fact that MLs have somewhat tricky rangebands to work with so utilising some kind of wildcard with a closer range weapon like the Haidao Red Fury or Shang Ji Spitfire is probably a good idea.


    Daoying: Well this is a cool unit and really didn't expect it to pack Camo. Can't really argue with a 21pt model that basically packs 3 orders for a beatstick like the Mowang to use, 7pts an order and it allows it to go above the combat group limit for order usage. On the other hand you can also pay some points and SWC to get either the Hacker or Sniper/Minelayer variants. Both have their uses and can put the LT orders to work instead their own way.


    Haidao: Cost efficient way to get KHDs or cheap SWC weapons like the Red Fury into links. Also gives you the option to put an MSV2 MSR into a core defensive link like Zhanshi. Not convinced that's the best use of resources but it's an option and essentially gives you a 2W Nisse that can link for defensive purposes, which is interesting.


    Zencha: Well, 2/3 profiles kinda suck. The Zencha doesn't have Shock Immunity so boarding shotguns are kinda asking to get it killed by mines and the shotgun profile doesn't really offer much utility. The AHD has all the usual problems of an AHD plus it's expensive and shitty.

    The SMG FO profile on the other hand is great. Got good plan B options to skirmish with in the form of the D.E.P. and Mines, and it's the cheapest of the 3 profiles to boot. Basically pray like hell we actually get an SMG model and aren't stuck with the shitty shotguns.


    Hac Tao: It's a Hac Tao. You know what it does. Now you can back it up with other link teams while it does its thing.


    Mowang: Another beatstick. Nothing to write home about. The Hac Tao is obviously superior in raw numbers, but on the other hand this one has better cost and order efficiency being able to leverage NCO and LT2. Fireteam Duo means a Pango can follow the Mowang around and reload its disposable weapons, but given that you can't get it into a Haris for +1 burst you're probably very rarely going to use them outside of desperate AROs anyway so it's probably only a corner case scenario anyway.

    Be warned. The LT profiles with their direct points and SWC discounts may look attractive. However NCO is public information and as soon as it hits the table your opponent will know it's the LT because it won't have NCO. This can be a problem against enemies that can reach out and kill you easily in one turn, so be careful about where you deploy this guy if you're going second because you might find a Speculo stabbing him or an Infowar player dropping a pitcher and Isolating him to make you kick the game off in LoL.


    Hulang: CC specialist profile. No access to smoke is kind of a shitty deal that's for sure for IA anyway. To be frank this model is probably going to be a shitload more interesting for Vanilla players being able to back it up with Monks and all the smoke grenades it needs to put that Monofilament CCW to work.

    On the other hand FD2 and 2 SMGs and E/M grenades are scary for people to get near. It seems like in IA the Hulang is more likely to behave passively as a zoning piece, when backed up by nearby Zencha. Doesn't sound as much fun as actively hunting and killing shit with the Monofilament CCW though.


    Liu Xing: What a mediocre piece of crap. Unfortunately Explode LX sucks and isn't worth shit in a real game. The main issue this model has besides being more expensive than it should be is that it's hackable. It can't really do reliable close range attack work on your opponent's DZ because they're probably just going to get their brains hacked out trying to approach that zone through repeaters. You could give it a spitfire and try to shoot shit from a distance, but then ask yourself why the fuck are you doing this with this model instead of many, many, better options available to you. Yu Jing, IA especially, does not lack for much better shooting options and you're doing this in a sectorial with fantastic links.


    Guijia: @Koni @Bostria I want to like this model. I really do. Goddammit. The Morats got their TAG which was basically monkey shaped copy of ours buffed. Why does ours still suck major dicks? Why didn't it receive any changes? It is absolute trash and it only looks worse in a faction of great link options for HI.
     
    #1 Triumph, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Unless there's a chance of getting Zhanshi Gongcheng and Zhanshi Yisheng to join a fireteam consisting of Zhanshi.
     
  3. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    Ah...the salt....it's burning my eyes!

    A bit negative but some good points. I think I'll need to check that Kuang shi Explosion thing you are talking about, never heard of that before...
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    We know there's at least one Wildcard unit.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't say special for them so don't hold your breath. Same deal for TAK Kazak doctors, they share the name but won't share teams with Line Kazaks.
     
  6. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    Also come on guys, you heard the hint in the video...the crappy Invincible unit that everyone complains about being too weak will get some sort of ability to join other Fireteams. I bet they'll be able to join the Zhanshi Fireteam to make it 5 strong. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Special" allows them to join ANY Fireteams in this Sectorial...
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but if it's a 40pt Character Zuyong that doesn't fit the bill of cost effective defensive link team. The point is you don't want a LI link that costs like 110pts, they're there to ARO and die while being as cheap as possible and Zhanshi already pay a stupid CC tax for no reason.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Kazak is an ethnic group, not a unit designation. The more direct comparison there is "Invincible" for Yu Jing or "Knight" for Military Orders. What I'm saying is that I think there's some grounds, albeit flimsy*, to stand on arguing that Zhanshi Gongcheng linked with a couple of Zhanshi Forward Observers would not be a special fireteam, but a normal regular bog standard Fireteam: Core.

    * Flimsy as there is now a formal list of fireteams. Back in HSN2, it was sufficient to share unit name, back then Keisotsu Yuriko Oda didn't need a special fireteam designation to join Keisotsu fireteams.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'd like it to be true, but the picture doesn't list any fire teams for the Engineer/Doctor so I doubt it's going to happen.



    This creates the same problem in a completely different way. You've basically built a Crane core 2.0. for IA. Your Zhanshi support box is still going to sit on the shelf because fuck giving the Zhanshi the guns when you can just give the Zuyong point man the gun and have a bunch of cheerleaders following him around to give him the link bonuses.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but as we saw with OSS, these force preview images are not reliable at all.

    EDIT:
    Although, hand on heart, the truth rating of this statement would not be changed by the AVA of the Zhanshi. The only unit in the Zhanshi SWC box that will see frequent use is the hacker and it has nothing to do with AVA.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's a fair point.
     
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Please calm down a bit, you have not even seen the army list....
     
  13. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Shang-jì are confirmed to have wildcard in the IA video. So yeah it will be a CG+crane look-alike fireteam, except cheaper, without smoke, and with the Shang-jì being able to fulfill very different roles depending of its loadout:
    - HRL for aro instead of zhanshi ML
    - spitfire to carry around 2 zhanshi specialist who double-up as corner guards
    - Deflector L2 with a zhanshi hacker for hacking shenanigans

    Considering the amount of lonely rambos in the sectorial, a powerful HI who can feed them orders by guarding some cheerleaders and wait the last turn to push with them and score objectives might be very valuable.

    On a side note, i'm both surprised and worried by the lack of minelayer profile on the zhencha...
     
  14. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but then there was almost no scenario AT ALL that would make me give a Zhanshi a SWC Weapon, while I have units like Hac Tao and their likes in the army that could actually make use of those SWC....so who cares? :-P

    I think the only one I could come up was if they'd be able to form a special Fireteam with Yan Huo Missile Launcher Profile, then I might get crazy and give them Sniper Rifles...but even that'd be quite stupid really...
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Basically it'd be like playing Vanilla except you actually have ARO options that don't begin and end with TR bots, your Hac Tao cruises around doing his thing but he's backed up by a defensive core link on overwatch. That's the purpose of a SWC box for the Zhanshi.

    Which makes it utterly boggling that they've released it for this long and won't give you a reason to build the goddamn models.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This sectorial, by the way, has some promise of being a competent REM sectorial considering the AVAs, but it does hinge on there being smoke somewhere to find since Rui Shi just aren't all that good without it.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think it just might be an argument for the Lu Duan to finally have his moment to shine.
     
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  18. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    A question to the veteran of this forum (I'm not a very regular attender), has all this saltiness always been here or is it something new and amplifying ?

    Even the 40k (most unbalance game ever) forum I read from time to time seem to have less whining ...

    Where is the "it's not your list, it's you" spirit ?

    Shock weapon everywhere ? Really ? If you can't see the potential of these profil think again. I find this new droop troop much more appealing than the tiger soldier.
     
  19. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    That was a good one :-P Unless there are some very cool other miniatures with the same silhouette in this Sectorial, I REALLY doubt that ;-)
     
  20. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Especially considering the sectorial might end-up SWC starved with all those 2SWC heavy weapons on top-notch HIs.