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Shaolin

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Dec 3, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So... there's been more people than just me taking issue with the disciplined Shaolin being Impetuous, but after playing O-12 and their Varangian... what if they were Regular and Impetuous instead? Making a few cross-comparisons between 45th, Varangian and Shaolin, I'd say roughly 3 points cheaper than a comparatively similarly armed Varangian.
    (Naturally, for this unit to work with weapons that uses BS it needs those weapons to be as cheap as possible, because it doesn't have BS)
     
  2. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    I don't think allowing vanilla yu-jing to field a 9 orders combat group for 73/0.5 (assuming 9pts for regular monks as per your estimate), replete with chain rifles and smoke tossers, is a good idea.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The Chain Rifle only profile does need addressing, but that would also make smoke access more expensive
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The fluff justification is reasonably solid, but I don't feel like this is something that could be balanced for as long as kuang shi exist in their current state.
     
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  5. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    There's a pretty big difference between being a disciplined martial artist and master of Zen and the ability to integrate with a military chain of command. I could maybe see an argument for dropping them down to vanilla Impetuous (still Irregular, though) but that'd have to come with a 1-2 point price hike straight up.

    As RobShep says, as one of the few factions to already have access to cheap Regular orders with chain rifles (Kuang Shi, Caledonian Volunteers, etc etc) I don't think there's any real need to give YJ more cheap Regular orders with chain rifles.
     
  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Shaolin are differently good. You get regular orders from Varangians but they cost more than twice as much. If Shaolin were Regular they'd probably be over 10pts as well.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sure, that's what I wrote. Shaolin has a deviant profile that has no proper weapons, that's the only one people take because 11 points for a BS 9 model isn't good.
    So yes, of course they'd be over 10 points, they'd be more expensive than Celestial Guard.

    The basic idea is that what they'd do was consolidate the smoke generation and the order generation into a single model, which is what makes Varangian good.

    I mean, Shaolin are okay, but that's when looking at a single of their profiles. As is atm the other bunch might as well be removed to save on ink. One of few cases where I'm not willing to believe anyone who claims they use those profiles.
     
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  8. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I'd be happy if they made them Irregular and Frenzy instead of impetuous. at least you have a bit more control. still not as good as Jaguars or Varangians but better than what we have.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.



    So let's fix the zombies, then. G:Sync to a Celestial Guard, just like Pupniks and Chimera. Now the zombies don't generate orders.
     
  10. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    The only thing Shaolins need is adding a chain rifle profile with DA CCW yes or yes. The fact shitty Morlocks scum can have DA CCW and E/M CCW cheap profiles but Shaolins don't, makes no sense.
     
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  11. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    If mcmurra can get normal impetuous for free, why not shaolin?! muwahaha
     
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  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Just for clarity, what do you mean by 'better than what we have'?
     
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  13. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'll have to join in on there. Shaolins being impetuous is one of their better traits, since it means that they can throw smoke without costing you any orders. Making them Frenzy would be a pretty huge nerf.
     
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  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    And I don't like the impetuous for them for It makes absolutely no sense from a fluff standpoint. At least make something about how the Shaolin of Infinity are not at all like they were in history or even today. Now from a game standpoint, I think the Jaguars kick shaolin in the balls by being regular and frenzy. they don't run screaming into fire when and on the off chance they do get into CC they have a shock close combat weapon that pings off armor or does nothing else. They would at least get cover with Frenzy. With normal impetuous you can cancel it to not run into fire, Because of CC being mainly luck, A Morlock is better than a Shaoling due to to the metachemistry and DA CCW. Jaguars cost more but are Regular/Frenzy but also Dogged and DA CCW. Uber girl and her pups will kill almost anything they come into contact with. Effing Irmindinohs are specialists with D-charges and booty! Galwegians have AP CCW, +1 PH and Berserk. and Mutts are hands down the best 5pt. warband/not warband in the game. I'd take any of those over what the Shaloin brings.
     
  15. Reservup

    Reservup Active Member

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    I'll concede that every Shaolin profile EXCEPT for the 5 point version has never seen play in any of my lists, and likely never will. They do seem like a waste of text.

    But the 5 point version is extremely good just as it is.

    It doesn't make a lot of sense to evaluate them in a vacumn against other warbands from other factions either. Other warbands (well except for Gazi....) are designed to function within their factions in a balanced fashion, of course a lot of them would perform better in other factions.

    For 20 points you can (and I often do) cover almost half the board in smoke without touching the main order pool.
    Then basically do as you please with your specialists, Hsien, Rui Shi, Haido etc.

    If they wanted to add a regular/impetuous profile, I'd very much like for the 5 point one to stay unaltered as well. The fluff aside, I love my Shaolin as is.
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I appreciate where you're coming from here, but sharp disagree with a lot of the balance perspectives. Excluding Mutts (which are nontraditional warbands) and Uberfal (which are too expensive to ever be considered in this category), Shaolin are pretty close to the best traditional melee/chain rifle warband in the game for their cost. I would trade them for precisely none of the alternatives in the same or similar points bracket, including Galweigans (which are good, but worse than Shaolins in any meta that knows what a knife does).

    The key strengths of the Shaolin are all the usual highly discounted impetuous smoke utility, combined with the best melee stats in the game on a model relative to cost. The combination of native CC22 and martial arts 3 rather than the deeply inferior martial arts 1 or 2 lets them outstrip every other warband in melee.

    Mutts are a unique case, but in short, you're mad if you'd trade Shaolin for any of the comparison models you suggested.
     
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  17. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I actually don't like comparing to other except in this troop. It's probably because they are out of character and they were the first troop I saw and made me want to play so long ago.

    I will agree about the Uber. I shouldn't have used her as a comparison. She is far beyond the Shaolin in ability and pays the pts for it. However, The Galwegian is just going to use berserk to sacrifice itself give him a +6 against the MA3. Which will increase his crit too. If the monk didn't have Shock CC the Galwe would go dogged too. Remember too CC is all on 1 die which, as we know, the lowest can destroy the highest with a bit of luck.

    I think, like some other troops Shaolin are a hold over from N1. They didn't do anything to them with each new edition to make them up to date. Thinking about it reminded me that back then the reason for the Impetuous was to show them as being "fast". They didn't give many more than a 4-4 move back then. They also benefited from cover.
     
  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The major difference between a Galweigan and a Shaolin is that the Galweign can semi-reliably be used to trade themselves and a bunch of orders for enemy models, whereas a monk can be expected to survive the same confrontation in melee. A Galweigan can trade their lives for some wounds on enemy models, but a couple of monks can punch a TAG to death and take no casualties.

    Also, all the usual rules of thumb about a single dice being bad disappear when you start rolling on scores above 20. A single dice roll on a stat of, say, CC22 will be more reliable than than a burst 3 attack with a moderate BS11. And it only gets better the higher you stack that score.
     
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  19. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    I think the premise of Monks not being impetuous is flawed. Impetuous doesn’t necessarily represent an unskilled unorganized attack. Shaolin are focused and filled with purpose. That purpose being to close with the enemy and win the fight in close combat. If the Monk sacrifices himself along the way, it is fine. He is a courageous souls willing to die for the cause of Yu Jing.

    Plus, with the exception of Myrmidons, they are my favorite warband in the game. For their cost, they are arguably the best.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Don't look at Taigha Creature too close :p

    Extreme Impetuous, though, means the troop will gladly and enthusiastically jump to their death, if this gets them the furthest on their path towards the enemy. They won't ever jump down, they always jump as far out as possible, regardless of fall distance. They will also run straight into a known minefield, directly into active enemy fire, not to mention that they will run straight through the napalm-drenched fuel station as long as the floor will support them with no regard for that the napalm is on fire, and they will swim through a river of lava provided there is any possibility of crossing it using the correct gear - but they'll do it with none of the necessary protection. This includes attempting space walks without protection or breathing apparatus.

    It is not that they are unorganised, this is not the thing, it is that they are in the utmost literal sense suicidal.

    (Also, I do think that the Combi Rifle and Boarding Shotgun profiles are artificially keeping the Monks' price high, if you scale them back to just Impetuous they should remain the same price. I'm not certain because melee skills are so expensive, but this is absolutely the case for Kuang Shi)
     
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