Fundamentally I think JSA's lukewarm success in terms of on-table enjoyment (I think it probably sold pretty well) says a lot about CB being disconnected from how the game is actually played vs. how they think it should be played. But hey, maybe CB's thinking "it sold well, no problem" and isn't even on the same page. But then you have forces like Spiral where they seem both mechanically interesting and at a good power level and you kinda wish that they had put that designer on the JSA project since it's supposed to be such a flagship project.
Maybe JSA could benefit from widespread Mechanised Deployment? It would start all the Spitfires in a good band, partially fixing the issue with DZ firepower, and make it easier to walk into CC without resorting to Smoke, without the full cost and extreme power of Infiltration.
I don't think any new units got mech deployment and I'm pretty sure that skill is going away at some point as it's not different enough to Infiltration to be anything but a bloat rule.
At least it's something. Losing climbing plus would possibly be good if this skill costs more than 1 point and you already have super-jump for extra movement options. I prefer points adjustments to follow the formula over manual adjusting. CC/MA cost needs to be fixed, this model is presumably screwed by this hard as I don't see what else would make it cost that much.
@Section9 2 points I think we settled on, though I don't know if for Shikami it would be 3 points since it already has levels of Valour, but I kind of doubt it since CB doesn't typically do overlap-discounts. It's kind of dubious though, built on incomplete information, it could be more it could even be less. This is going to be controversial and very subjective, because it is by nature subjective, but I've seen them a lot less on the table since they split from Yu Jing. This could be due to many things, but the NA2 factions (except Spiral which is ostensibly a Tohaa sectorial in all but name) see little table time and are largely seen as beer and pretzel factions around here (our meta is very tournament oriented - relaxed tournament, but tournament). I think having a vanilla faction to anchor them and provide a low-JSA presence option to the sectorial's high-JSA presence was important. I stand by my assessment that JSA is mostly fine and that it provides above average amount of options for list building. Simply put, I don't think "lukewarm ... on-table enjoyment" necessarily stems from poor performance and I don't think it can be fixed by large blanket alterations. Basically what I'm saying is that the only real way I see of JSA being better received is for them to be adopted into a primary faction again. (Now, all we need for that to happen is for Aconticimiento to explode and for MO to go rogue :p)
It's definitely something that varies enormously from meta to meta. The two UK Satellites this year had 3 out of ~50 and 2 out of 38, making it one of the more popular Sectorials in both events.
Mushashi is close to useless right now. So much CC power in a unit with 0 tools to get close in a faction full of CC specialists, irregular or CAP cost, shock and viral vulnerable and 0 utility... I really like these suggestions NBW plus some good disposable weapons or more stopping power in reactive would give him a niche. With their stats and no cube they are terrible imo, even as cheerleaders; the FO profile is the only decent one; the ML is okish with a full core but very easy to kill with any semidecent shooter, even with full link bonus. With these changes they would be more playable; keep in mind that despite of ODD and 2 wounds and good CC skills they are still a hackable HI unit with BTS 3 running into the midfield; it's not like they have no dissadvantages. I'd rather a brain than a hand. Spoiler: JSA in a nutshell I agree with these, the new aditions to the game have changed it. Before a MSV2 sniper that could shoot through smoke was only B1 or they have to pay a lot to bring him/it was a pretty crappy one. Now it's all about premium tools for everyone, which make the balls to the wall style of JSA even harder. I'd rather a game without cheap linked MSV2 snipers (or any other premium shooter with line infantry), but as the arms race is on; JSA may get some extra tools to close the gap.
JSA was fine when it was released. But then this happened (quote myself from another thread here) So since Summer 2018, these things were added to the game without any (excect Karakuri) changes to JSA: - single MSV2 profiles in core -> reducing TO, ODD and Smoke effectiveness - Tactical Awareness & NCO -> giving more Order to LI lists to certain factions - Many Natural born warrior profiles -> limiting the Martial Arts abilities of JSA - Total Immunity -> limiting the Mono-CC weapons & Flashpulse - Fatality L2 in Core -> ignoring everything that has mods (TO and ODD) - Saito Specialist profile lost - Cheaper pseudo 2W profiles thanks to NWI + Immunity - Better deployment for Combat Jump troops -> JSA has none - Forward deployment for MI troops -> JSA has none - Wildcard heavy hitters -> JSA has only a variance
First of all, JSA need some real useful mixed link. The most obvious here is the Tanko in Keisotsu Fireteam available to Ikari but not to JSA. And Domaru Wilcard. Remember that Keisotsu are te only Core for the army (yeah, i know Domaru Core are a thing, but it is a point sink IMHO). We could have Keisotsu CORE Domaru CORE / Wildcard Kempei Tai 1 or 2 in Keisotsu Tanko 1 or 2 in any Core Oyama COUNT AS Domaru Karakuri Haris Dayokai Duo / Haris Shikami Duo Musashi Haris special (i would go as far as count as Tanko) Oda COUNT AS Keisotsu Now, for the units... Kuroshi rider is a non-go at the moment. CC22 without any CC related skill il laughable. I really like the Protheion proposal, it fits the theme more than Berserker. Ryuken-9 should be totally revised. HRL should have Decoy or Ambush Camo. The ODD profile is good enough. But we should be able to choose between a lot more specialized loadout. I see this a good spot for experimental weapons or equipment. JSA could really use a Jammer or a Nullifier, and the place is here. Tokusetsu... Damn, give them something or make them linkable... I don't think this would be too much. Domaru could use some new arrangements apart from CC skill. We got a Spitfire, we got a FO specialist (i'd rather had a Specialist Operative with a bonus Flash Pulse). I like the idea of an Eclipse grenade launcher. It fits and don't use the already overboostes PH/CC. Shikami profies should be revised too. Nimbus grenade and Assault pistol are not enough to overcome the Contender shittiness. SMG (the actual overpowered one) and breaker pistol. And the Tactical Bow... FFS, a bloated pistol with B1... It need more B, a higher DMG or an EXP ammo. Maybe two out of three, to be a real choice and not "i need a KHD". Musashi, Togan, Yojimbo, Daiyokay and Karakuri are truly ok for me, nor OP or underperforming.
Sorry, but I have to dissect these. MSV2 in Cores already existed for the longest time, but they've been on models that aren't streamlined (Bao, Djanbazan, etc), what's changed is that we have one with Mimetism and with extra-cheap Core fillers. (Edit: and in an army that's built around encouraging you to use your Core defensively) TAware and NCO hasn't changed the meta. The one sectorial where it is prominent, I'd say, has at least as many if not more problems than JSA*. They also seem to have been given to units/profiles in other sectorials that, at least most of them (don't @ me unless you've got a case for nearly all NCO/TA models being shakers and movers), aren't stellar to begin with. NWI I simply don't agree with. Typically it'll run the unit more expensive but it won't typically change the outcome of combat once your units reach CC. However, since your opponent has elected to go for more expensive units, you should be able to reach CC with less chaff in the way. Total Immunity benefits JSA as much as it inconveniences them. I know you're talking about McMurrogh here and not your own Karakuri nor Sun Tze, but the biggest issue with McMurrogh I think is that he is no longer Extreme Impetuous. Fatality L2. Yeah... Saito Specialist Operative. Yeah... Pseudo NWI... I don't think this affects JSA much since JSA isn't good at hacking game to begin with. Whether it's a pseudo-HI or an actual HI doesn't matter all that much and the points saved between them aren't all that great. Still... Neko, Tanko or Oniwaban doesn't care, they'll typically leapfrog the extra "wound" anyway. Landing Assistance justifies using AD3+, but doesn't make factions without it worse. What it does do for JSA is that it makes chaff or total reaction / neurocinetics more valuable or even mandatory, and JSA doesn't really have either since 9 points is cheap, but it's still fairly expensive and inadequate to deal with AD troops without template weapons. Bravery needs to go. Absolutely. Be gone foul bandaid-that-doesn't-benefit-the-units-that-need-it-but-instead-benefits-those-that-don't! Wildcard... okay sure, I'll give you this one, though thematically and mechanically I think only Domaru and maybe possibly Kempeitai are appropriate. However, those two would still shuffle things around quite a bit. * I do consider JSA to be significantly easier to make a functional list with than IA. IA is really tricky to get working decently, but the key seems to be to never put more than half your points into any given Fireteam (which if you read between the lines means "don't go all out on TA")
How do you use Mushashi? I just can't see a use for that model... Daiyokay could use some changes imo, but he is playable.
No worries, I like a civilized discussion. My emphasis there was on the "single" MSV2 in Core. Like the obviously Kamau or Haidao in their cheap links. Previously, you had to pay many points for that and therefore nobody did, so we didn't have to deal with that threat. So I think we do mean the same thing here. My problem with Total Immunity is that it prevents Monofilament. Meaning you can't kill i.e. Sun Tze anymore with a well deployed Oniwaban in a surgical strike. Karakuri got a nice buff, I did mention that. But unlike SunTze or the "wolf in the room", they also increased the points value because they benefit from their high gap between BTS and ARM. In general, I feel its the sum of these little changes. Other sectorials got buffed a tiny bit, but JSA don't.
Musashi? Don't give his Tanko retinue a ML and walk them on. No one dares to close in. Otherwise alone as a homing missile abusing of his speed. And always remember that his primary ARO is the Flash Pulse.
Yeah, and why no one was crying to the falling sky? Because it was a simple Shock Marksman Rifle (Optimal range in 24", B3 DMG 13 Shock instead of optimal range YOUR DZ, B2 DMG15 AP/Shock). It is a totally different basket. Even if I do not consider the linked MSV2 MSR a major problem...
Hmm, I might be staring myself blind at points cost, but I think that Haidao with MSV2 and able to Core would be a fairly popular Fireteam. It'd be 1 point more expensive than a Zuyong, but it would be condensed to the key points that you want from the Zuyong and similar to Djanbazan you'd only need to run 3 of them in the link in IA (even though an IA where Haidao are baseline MSV2 and not Wildcard would be a massively different beast). What I'm saying is, I guess, that MSV2 is not a detriment when you have several of them unless the unit itself is poorly optimised. -- From my point of view this changed Sun v2 from "gimmick" rating to "occasionally useful" and Sun v1 from "occasionally useful" to "useful" while both are still short of the "great" rating I'd give several other LT options and too expensive without bringing enough MOD manipulation to justify the cost for non-LT option (among other things, Strategos 3 is embedded in baseline profile and not unique to the LT profiles). So okay, it's slightly worse for the Oniwaban when you look at Sun Tze in a void, but there are already configurations that are so much harder for Oniwaban to deal with that in practice this could actually be seen as a buff because the Yu Jing player is now slightly more likely to use LTs that an Oniwaban can effectively make an assassin run on, even if it'll take an extra order or two. Which LT configuration below would you least want to see across the table? (it's entirely down to luck that both are same points cost, but I'd also like to point out that you can affect a similar defence without going for the maligned Pheasant by simply opting for the 16 pts cheaper Xi and sticking MadTraps close enough to the Daoying to... strongly discourage an Oniwaban from smoking and Intuitive Attacking the Daoying) GROUP 1 1 SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 65) GROUP 2 2 DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command, X Visor) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, MadTraps / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
I agree with you that these single examples are more or less theoretical. But I'll stick with my opinion that the sum of these changes did weaken the sectorial in a relativ standing to others.
My problem with these is: The Karakuki special Haris is much better as they have real weapons to fire while advancing, are much more resilient and are specialists; even if that Haris is more expensive. And the Domaru CC is enough to kill most targets in CC anyway. As a solo piece, even with 6-4 movement we are talking about a model without bioimmunity, he is 1 mine blast or 1 buffed TR bot hit away from dying (against he must use his dodge or mighty B1 flash pulse); so expending a lot of orders to move him from your DZ to the enemy half of the table isn't worth the risk for me. He is also a 1 trick pony, you cannot try to use a ranged weapon or speculative fire to kill something well protected by AROs or mines for example; you must go to CC. Why would I waste orders moving such model ahead? It could be fine if he would be much more cheaper, with a better deployment options or he would add something to the army (smoke for example), but if you include him and can't take advantage of him (lot of mines, full ranged firepower and MSV2 for example), he is dead weight.
