Reinventing JSA: Some Thoughts

A pretty nice writeup, but to be extremely honest - JSA can be saved by just one change.
Split up Ninja profiles. Call one Shinobi, keep them as melee beasts but take away their range options. Leave them their crappy Tac Bows, just give out EXP, Viral or DA CCW, BS 10 (can shoot, but crap at that), maybe downgrade TO to normal camo, keep infiltration and MA 3. Maybe leave a KHD profile or a FO. Another profile option replaces Tac Bow with a chain rifle or nanopulser. Also, maybe a Contender profile. And give all profiles either normal Smoke Grenades, or maybe Eclipse.

The second profile would keep the Ninja name, and it should be the range option. TO Camo or ODD, no infiltration or MA, 14 CC but 13 BS (I would say 14, but good luck getting that anywhere outside PanO xD), profiles with MSR, MMR (maybe even Shock version, like kempei's), Minelayer for DZ defence, a Panzerfaust/Combi profile, and maybe Ojotnik. A FO profile might be viable as well.

Set AVA 2 for each of these profiles and voila, you've fixed JSA! You get a decent long range gunfighter (up to to) as either ARO, attack piece or both, you keep your infiltrating murderbuttonpusher (although you have to be extra careful with him, because no cheapo SF on last order), and you get more smoke in more useful place than Jimbo/Kitsune/now_useless_Saito.

 

Give the Daiyokai an HMG, or a new weapons that's a DAM14 HMG with Shock (call it a Crimson Anger). Makes it more of a mini TAG than a buff HI.

Wildcard Domaru makes sense as they're already 90% of the way there.

The HRL Ryuken needs something, the above suggestion is as good as any I can think of.

 

Thumbs up @barakiel, I definitelly agree with most of these changes.

Keisotsus are probably one of the worst line infantry out of there, in addition to these changes it would be great to get the base profile down to 8 points; these doesn't really worth much more.

A cheaper Ninja would also give JSA a much needed button pusher at a reasonable price, and a cheaper TO Multi sniper without having to pay premium CC for him.

Shikami needs the FD2 badly and that could be traded for a bit of durability (I'd keep the ODD in them tho).

The changes to Domaru would be quite good, specialy the ability to get linked smoke; getting your full link from your DZ to theirs take a lot of orders and HI are super vulnerable to a lot of stuff, so it'd be fine...

That change to Kuroshi rider would be awesome, she is good but expensive and squishy; protheion would be enough some incentive to play her more.

The Dayokai point is really good; he feels like a sixth or seventh wheel in the faction, he is supposed to be a toolbox but he ends being a worse domaru in CC, mediocrish range weapons and BS for a model of his points, BTS 3 and no specialist profile... pretty disapointing one.

But don't forget Mushashi, that poor guy is crying alone in the corner.
And as I said in other thread, some extra support for the HIs would be welcome; a domaru/tanko profile with a tinbot with deflector would help; some linkable or FL2 doctor/engineer too (JSA tends to go too far for their supports to keep up with them)

 

I like most of the suggestions in the OP (although I'd rather keep ODD on the Shikami). I ike the idea of Protheion on Kuroshi Rider, although its interaciton with V:Dogged brings up a bit of a conflict.

I'd also add:

•Give Domaru a chain rifle profile with FD2 and either minelayer/AP mines or Crazy Koalas (I'd prefer the latter, but the former's alright). Likely make it restricted from joining fireteams. Would make for a strong midfield harassment piece. O-12 is getting a nastier version of this with their Gangbusters, so something like this doesn't seem very far out of line.

•Give Mushashi's irregular profile AD1 and either smoke or eclipse grenades. Apply Frenzy liberally.

•I'm fine with the Rui Shi being 1.5 SWC, but if it is going to cost that much, it should be able to join a link team. While I greatly dislike the idea of the Rui Shi getting link team bonuses, it's a Pandora's Box that CB has chosen to open. Give it to Domaru fireteams to give a reason for running those instead of using them strictly as wildcards.

 

I had a whole big writeup about this on my old computer, but I think it's been lost, so here's as much as I can remember of it. Long post warning.

1) Smoke

JSA needs more smoke, and I would trade both of the MSV2 shooters to have tons more smoke. Or not, because Ikari gets to have Smoke + MSV2, cheap warbands, TO camo, and AD all in one army. Domaru with smoke would be fine. Smoke LGL bikes would be fine. Smoke grenades on Kuroshi rider would be fine. What kind of Ninja isn't carrying around smoke (like c'mon, that's the tropiest ninja ever.) I honestly don't get why JSA gets no smoke and then gets heavily taxed on both its MSV2 units (Shock Marksman Rifle costs 0 SWC in other armies, Rui Shi costs 1 SWC in its home army). Musashi might actually be fieldable with smoke.

2) Fireteams

A small fireteam rework would go a long way. Why does Ikari have more flexible Tanko link options than JSA, their home sectorial? The Tanko + Brawler + Keisotsu core would open up so much for JSA in terms of controlling the table without relying on Ryukens, Yojimbo, etc.

I love the idea of Wildcard on Domaru. I'd like to see wildcard on Neko, Yuriko, and Musashi as well.

The Daiyokai should just be a Domaru for link reasons. There's no reason in the modern game to not let it have FT core (but EGADS! THIS WOULD GIVE JSA BS16 on an ACTIVE TURN UNIT! We can't possibly allow THIS!). Domaru and Tanko should just link interchangeably, as should Keisotsu and Kempeitai.

3) Individual Units.

Bikes: Give them smoke and they go from situational to great. Give them a Haris and they're situationally hilarious and probably really fun. As it is, I rarely see Aragoto that aren't the KHD or very rarely the spitfire. I love the idea of giving Protheion to Kuroshi Rider.

Keisotsu: Downgrade them to rifles (unlikely) or downgrade their CC a point to make them 8 points (because let's face it, they feel like they're 8 points.)

Kempei: Some kind of ARO weapon that could link with Keisotsu would be nice, not necessarily an MSR because of JSA restrictions, but an HRL might be fine.

Ryuken: Let's face it, the HRL isn't competitive. Giving that profile to the Kempei (as was done with the old Raiden Spitfire profile) would open up a lot of interesting design space for Ryuken options. The Ryuken often feels like the biggest waste of design space in the army. I would love to see 4 really interesting and unique profiles competing for AVA2, especially ones that could really shape a list.

Daiyokai: After a while of playing Spiral Corps, the Kiel-San feels in some ways like the Daiyokai done right. It's funny because it's only different in a couple tiny ways (Metachem, NBW, 6-2) but the Daiyokai being FT:Core-able or getting reworked just a little (6-2 maybe? Full Auto would be cool but isn't really "JSA") would make it more fieldable.

Domaru: Give them smoke or eclipse smoke and they would be cool. A Character domaru with an HMG (so just AVA1) would be cool, it could even be a bit bloatey. It would be nice to have a decent linkable HMG that performs more consistently than the Keisotsu.

Karakuri: After the TI rework, they're fine. A bit too expensive to be worth fielding every mission, but they're absolutely incredible in area control/room holding missions. A B4 weapon would be nice.

Shikami: I'd like to see it as 6-2, NWI + Shock Immune, FD2, Frenzy, and with weapon profiles including dual SMG, SMG + KHD, and something B4 (Red Fury?) I'd even let FD2 and Red Fury be mutually exclusive profiles. The cheapest Shikami could then be more in the 35-38 point range which would be way more viable.

Tanko: Fireteam rework would be fine, I honestly don't mind Tanko as is. They have all the reactive options among JSA HI currently, I think that's a fine niche.

Ninja flavors: There's no reason the base Ninja shouldn't have smoke, as above. I think the profile is fine but bloated by the CC costs. Dropping their CC and PH a little each could cheapen them up a bit. I like Oniwaban as is, but a KHD would be thematic and pretty strong. I don't like Shinobu, I think she's too bloatey, but other people do. Saito just needs a rework I think. Give him specialist and there's very few reasons to take a Ninja, take it away and there's few reasons to take him.

Musashi: Wildcard and no swc tax on the regular profile would be cool, as would shock immune, or smoke. Any of the above would make him much more playable.

 

OMG, pls this. I know she is supposed to be dullahan (durara one in particualr) but this would be awesome thematically and rule-wise.

Not really keen on giving drop bears to non-australians XD, would be nice if shikami had eclipse instead of nimbus tho.

Musashi needs wildcard at least.

 

Why not, already got crazy koalas...

 

I think it'd be more interesting to give her Eclipse Smoke.

 

I'd rather both, or the eclipse in a less niche character.
I'd like to get ride of the "let's give JSA smoke, but only in the more expensive named characters and Yojimbo"... this army shouldn't have that extra handicap to include a basic tool for them as smoke is. JSA has enough dissadvantages with his low firepower and hacking vulnerabilities.

 

Eh, I'd prefer for Protheion to stay a Combined Army thing.

Except the Fat Yuan Yuan, he can have it.

 

I really agree with this.

Needing to take one of three Named Characters to get smoke is a real kick in the balls. Having to pay at least 21pts, and usually paying more like 70pts (for Saito and Yojimbo) is hideous.

 

They should give JSA a drop troop with smoke that's like a more elite (and Regular) Yuan Yuan.

 

...Is there a chance said drop troop would fly in using their unfurled scrotums as parachutes? Because I'd be down for that.

 

Tanuki-suited ninjas would be pretty humorous, but not what I was thinking, heh.

 

"Tanuki" Special Airborne Support Regiment (obviously use fitting Japanese translation)

Medium Infantry, Cube, Irregular (I had considered adding Frenzy originally, but it feels a bit too min/max-y for a profile like this, even if CB thinks it should be all the rage these days)

MOV 4-2 / CC 22 / BS 12 / PH 13 / WIP 13 / ARM 3 / BTS 0 / W 1 / S 5 / AVA 3
Skills & Equipment - AD1: Parachutist/Forward Deployment L1, Martial Arts L2, Kinematika L1, V: Dogged

Tanuki - Chain Rifle, SMG, Eclipse Smoke Grenades - Pistol, E/M CCW
Tanuki - Chain Rifle, SMG, Eclipse Smoke Grenades - Pistol, DA CCW
Tanuki Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) - Combi Rifle, Grenades - Pistol, Shock CCW
Tanuki (Holoprojector 2) - Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, Eclipse Smoke Grenades - Pistol, Shock CCW


Make them special support units that dabble in the same schools of training as the samurai and ninjas, similar to the Ryuken-9s, but with a focus more on tricksy behaviour fitting the spirits from Japanese folklore from which they draw their names.

...Scrotum parachutes are optional, but appreciated.

 

Maybe this could be split into 2 profiles:Both with MSV1, and one could be a Fire Team Option with Mimetism for Keisotsu. The other could just be upgraded to have Mimetism, or full Camo. They could be priced in the high 20s or low 30s and still be a competitive option to contend againts the Ryuken-9 SMG.

If the SWC was reduced I would expect the cost to go up by 3 points, but I think that would be worth it.

I like the ODD, but could see bringing them down to NWI + Shock Immune. I have had some decent success with the Contender, Assualt Pistol profile, and even a simple reduction in points or FD Lv1 would make them much better. D-Charges, and Drop Bears as profile options would be cool too, and would fit a roll as a more shock unit as opposed to the stealthy Oniwaban.

Dual Panzerfaust or Flammenspear and keeping its Multi-Marksman Rifle or Red Fury would be interesting as a way to give this unit a different shooter than the Karakuri, and would offer a more flexible roll. It could stay back shooting with 2 shots an order before reloading, or it could use those shots to advance close enough to switch to its other weapons. I think it would also be better with NBW than with MA2, especially with how low its CC is. Then it would have an advantage over non CC units, while remaining survivable against CC units rather than just outclassed.

I think Protheion would be fun, but would also rather keep it as a Combined/Shasvastii skill.
What I would like to see from her would be NWI and Regeneration. Regeneration would give her shock immunity, and the ability to regain a wound without needing a doctor, (albeit at a significant risk). Also this is another character I think which would benefit from NBW. This would also fit her weapon choice and background, (that only having one cybernetic arm does allow her to have super strength, but has better motor control, and swifter reflexes with that arm).

 

Damn CA took Ko Dali and Bit + Kiss!
With Proteion she would feel like Armand Le Muet with his Symbiont Armor outside of Tohaa. At least I think so.

 

Some input from someone who only occasionally dabbles in JSA and when I do I typically go full-Samurai. For the most part I'm very happy with JSA's balance and I think it provides me with a lot of flexibility in spite of being a sectorial (and it always has) as well as providing a challenge without withholding any tools.

TL, DR : JSA is mostly fine. Only Kuroshi Rider and Ryoken-9 HRL needs a real buff. Possibly Mushashi as well.

Smoke: The faction has been designed not to rely overly much on smoke (unlike Ariadna), and in fact most factions don't have smoke as readily reliable and available as JSA does. I rate JSA's smoke access to be at least on par with Dahshat and better than vanilla Yu Jing since it really matters which models smoke is on and what those models are expected to do with said smoke as well as the rest of the army list, and for this reason I value Shinobu's or Saito's tactically infiltrating smoke at high PH higher than a Kum biker spam who typically has far too high movement and will expose themselves to opportunistic AROs.

Eclipse: In Bostria's words "not going to happen" (paraphrasing). Wrong technology level (even with foreign aid) and frankly not necessary. Not to mention that there's already access to smoke and that regular smoke meshes well with JSA in general.

Keisotsu: These used to have discount SWC weapons, and my opinion in general is that all 1+ SWC weapons on these types basic Line Troopers should be discounted. That said, Keisotsu are some of the absolutely best Line Troopers out there, simply owing to their very low cost. A single point makes a massive difference for units that aren't actually meant to fight and BS 10 or WIP 12 is more than enough to fight back a delaying action when you only pay 10 for it.

Kempei: I find them obligatory, but incidentally when I've fleshed out a Keisotsu link with them they, the Core usually ends up as expensive as a Samurai Core would! I don't see a reasonable need to make alterations to Kempei, and due to having CoC and MSV2 they will be prolific even though the sectorial is ostensibly not actually about this unit. I find they currently make for a great middle ground between being a very good inclusion without stealing the spotlight.

Domaru: Yeah. Absolutely, I can see a good case for Wildcard here. They almost are! IA-style Wildcard or generic Wildcard, though?
As for smoke, well... see above. I don't actually find Samurai to merit smoke, not even on a different unit in the Fireteam. It would be far too easy to move them up the table and given how CC work in this game once they reach melee range it's basically game over for anyone near them. It would simply remove any need for supporting units like Ninjas.

Ninjas: I still think Ninjas are better suited as the saboteurs variety (@Section9 do you remember what this type of Ninja was called?) and for Oniwaban to fully and exclusively shoulder the assassin role. Also, just like Yu Jing Ninjas, I'd like JSA Ninjas to be different from the clan that was left behind, different equipment and skill priorities. For this reason I think Ninja CC and MA levels should go down to be closer to an SAS or Kanren while the gear focuses more on things like D-Charges, Adhesive Launchers, Forward Observer and similar support weapons.

Ryuken-9 (HRL): Just give it regular Camo for the same price as a JSA Husong.
Incidentally, Raiden HRL is the profile I miss the most in vanilla Yu Jing. And yes, I see R-9 HRL used occasionally as a way to try and delete Fireteams, but the Raiden was better suited for this role being 2 points cheaper, better armoured as MI and if memory serves a slightly better shot.

Rui Shi: There's a reason why the Rui Shi is extra costly in JSA and Dahshat, and it's a good one. For JSA it is simply put like this; JSA is excellent at running REM lists. Almost better than ISS, in fact, and it's all due to having very cheap Hacking Devices, supporting Ninjas and Keisotsu order batteries. The increased SWC puts an effective stop to nearly exclusive REM lists for JSA as JSA is not meant to skew so hard to REMs. While this might suck to hear as someone who doesn't play Yu Jing or who doesn't want to play Yu Jing, you're going to have to play Yu Jing or ISS if you want to go heavy on these REMs.

Shikami: So far the suggestions in this thread has been, to put it politely, "Hulang, but better in every single way". Like it or not, but I do think other factions impose design space limitations.
Now, I don't want to sound too conspiratorial here, but the Shikami's greatest detriment is the issue of cost and I can't quite make sense of the Shikami's price. With a price difference of about 12 points to the Domaru (whom it shares a significant amount of skills and attributes with, in spite of being a Ninja), which nets the Shikami Climb+, Super-Jump, ODD and Specialist Operative, it seems the Shikami is paying through its nose for Climb+ and Super-Jump, while losing out on Berserk and E/M 'nades. It is what it is, but I think 39 and 41 points is a more representative price for the two respective profiles and I'd be interested in seeing what that together with a potential Domaru Wildcard Duo tag along might do.
Also, the Combi profile probably needs AP Mines or something cheap but capable of asymmetrical trades to make it relevant compared to the Nimbus+APistol profile. It can't live on Suppression Fire alone.

Mushashi: Yeah.... I dunno... ODD?

Kuroshi Rider: I absolutely love Kuroshi. She provides me so much value. She's perfect. There's not been a game with her in it that has gone south for me. She's so easy to corner and kill or to make irrelevant and I love it when JSA opponents field her.
Ehum. She's atrocious, tbh. A very good candidate for an extra Smoke Grenade, in spite of what I wrote above, and boy does this one need it.

Daiyokai: I don't think comparing with the Kiel-San is fair play. We all know that the Symbiont units don't play fair, neither in rules nor in points cost, but I would say that NWI is better than losing the Symbiont and Assault doesn't do as much for a 6-2 unit as for a 4-4. I look at the Daiyokai and compare with Mowang and Yan Huo and I think the Daiyokai doesn't come out quite as poorly in comparison. Fatality 1 actually does make a difference and the Martial Arts levels does make a difference in how you can effectively and safely deal with him. I will freely accept that there's significant overlap here, but... come on! He's a BS 13, 1 SWC, ARM 5 Shock Spitfire!
I can think of two ways to improve Daiyokai's relevance;
1. make it even more a cheating weapons platform. Focus on low-SWC weapons, reduce Martial Arts competency to roughly a Shang-Ji (i.e. "it's better than nothing, because it's virtually nothing"). I don't think this intrudes or competes with Karakuri because smaller Silhouette, higher melee vulnerability, and better weapon options on Daiyokai
2. skip the cheating weapons platform and focus all out on making it a huge Neko. Remove Fatality in favour of Berserk and maybe even make an argument for 6-4 MOV. Neko would hit harder but Daiyokai would take a beating Neko can't.
Still... I've faced off against one once so far and they were a nightmare that I had to use a Shang-Ji AHD to keep at distance and avoid like the plague.

Also damn it all. Now I want to play JSA in the next tournament. I'll never be done painting my Dahshat.

 

Mostly agree, but:

Daiyokai needs to be improved, right now costs too much for what he adds. He can be overshadowed in every role by other JSA units.
Domaru should never have access to smoke, no honorable samurai would ever face an enemy in any other way than frontal oone on one fight.
Musashi aint that bad, he is a close combat beast that can even lower a Tanko link cost, there is no need in transforming him into another kitsune.