Camo marker “A” is part of a Coordinated order that targets model “B” with BS attack. Camo marker “A” doesn’t have LoF to model “B”. Is camo marker “A” revealed?
No. If a model cannot execute a skill in a coordinated order, it does nothing instead. In this case, not having LoF would prevent the legal declaration of BS Attack. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders If one or more of the participants in the Coordinated Order is unable to complete any of the Short Skills of the Order, then they only complete those they can. However, for the purposes of ARO generation, these troopers count as having declared all Short Skills of the Order.
Can camo marker declare the illegal (no LoF) BS attack (and not get revealed) even if LoF is available after move?
not quite accurate. The Marker declares BS attack, which then defaults to idle. However the declaration is what breaks the Camo Martker state. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/coordinated-order-surprise.1362/page-2 See IJWs post
Hmm, interesting. I read it a little differently, since it says that you simply don't perform any skills at all if they are illegal. I guess it's the difference between declaring and executing.
That's exactly the difference. You must declare the same skills and it's the declaration that breaks camo. The used-to-be-camo-marker does not execute the skill, however, and idles instead.
Please check all the involved parts: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged#Cancellation Since the camo marker has DECLARED he was going to shoot, regardless of it being changed for "Idle" or not, the Cancellation clause for Camo marker state has been met, and so he is revealed.
Yes, but if we read the example of Holoprojector L1, the troup with these equipment don't reveal itself if other team leader do BS attack, because he do "inaction". So, examples of how a rules works against many contradictions between rule text and examples. If I don't remember bad, this exact point Coordinate and CAMO involved, was in one FAQ, maybe 1.4?
Yes, is not a "camo marker", but has pretty much the same wording in cancelation triggers, one of them at least is declare some skill which requires dice rolls, and in a "fireteam" all the members declare "the same order", but do "nothing" instead the "declared action". That is why I bring the Holo example.
Yup! If we take the Holo1 example as true, then merely declaring an action is not enough to break Holo *or* Camo.
Except Camo is explicitly broken by declaration. Bold+Italics+Underline+Orange my emphasis. Also, Camoflaged as the state does not have the same example that Holo1 does. So I don't believe that Holo has the same cancellation rules as Camo. I would greatly prefer that Holo and Camo have the same cancellation rules, however.
Wow, this is pretty bad... they have the exact same cancellation clauses as it pertains to declaring skills, but the example clearly states that the Hafza is not revealed in that case. If it's an exception, it should be clearly labeled as such, otherwise you get this: Then again, in the same example, it clearly states that because the team leader declares Dodge, so do all of the team members, and we all know that's not necessarily true... Thoughts?
My thought is that I've never liked how they wrote the fireteam activation rules, for this very reason. The holoprojector rules sufficiently cover the fireteam case that we know that they (and presumably camo; can Bruant still be a linked camo marker?) won't reveal due to being the non-active model in a fireteam. Coordinated orders are a related but not identical case, so I don't think it makes a good reference. The biggest being that all models will execute all skills in a coordinated order that they can, as opposed to just the fireteam leader. The initial question in this thread is actually quite interesting for that reason, since it's about a model that cannot legally perform one of the skills, which brings us closer to the fireteam case.
No, stop it. HP1 IS NOT A MARKER STATE. Holoecho (HP2) is a Marker state. This is the difference. A model in Marker State (HP2, CH: Any Level apart Mimetism, Impersonation, at the moment we have just these) lose is state if he Declares a yaddayaddayadda. A model in HP1 works differently because A) it is not a markers state and B) the rules say so. The Fireteam exception is, who would say that, an exception to the normal rules.
There is something fishy here. That cancelation clause is the same, so marker or not, they must end in the same exact conditions. A coordinated order, even when not preformed, is considered declared so it would break both. However in Fireteam we have this rule: In the first example of the fireteam we have this: Spoiler: Fireteam Example. Support Skill During the Active Turn, a Fireteam of five Alguaciles declares the first Short Skill of their Order: Move. The Team Leader is a Hacker, so he declares Hacking as second Short Skill of the Order. This is a Movement + Support Skills combination. In this case, the Team Leader has not declared a BS Attack, so the rest of the Fireteam members cannot provide any bonus. Moreover, the other Alguaciles are not Hackers, so they are considered to have declared an Idle Skill, and the Team Leader is the only one who acts. But, even if there were another Hacker in the Fireteam, this trooper would not act either, and the Team Leader would not receive any support. In the example of the Holo we have this: Spoiler: Holoprojector L1 and Fireteam Example: A Fireteam Core of Janissaries with a Hafza in Holoprojector L1 state imitating a Janissary, declares a Move + BS Attack Order. The Hafza, who is not the Team Leader, moves and provides support to the Team Leader, which is considered an Idle. As this Short Movement Skill doesn't require a Roll, the Hafza is not revealed, and so remains in the Holoprojector L1 state. However, in the following Order, the Team Leader declares Dodge, so all the Fireteam members make a PH Roll. In this situation, the Hafza is revealed automatically. I'd say the example of Holo 1 is wrong: It seems to work like this: Support the model can perform (BS attack): Declares order (BS attack) perform Idle Support the model cannot perform (Hack): Declares Idle, perform Idle. In the Holo1 case the model perform an idle but it must declare BS attack which would break the Holo1 state.
