In the Stratuscloud state (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Stratuscloud_(State)) rules, under cancellation it has two dot points(that concern my question): Most people I have seen read this as saying that even if you reload the Stratuscloud it is unusable. I've been discussing it with a few people and I think its actually a nesting issue. I think the second point is only meant to mean that if you cancel the effect you can't just chose to turn it back on. The example that makes me think this is in the TeamPro details. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/TeamPro Amongst all the other rules we have these two dot points. I don't think there is anyone who would argue that the TeamPro program only works for Vanilla armies, despite what is said in the second of those two points. I think most people would accept that it is only referring to the previous point, that allows for the use of TeamPro to create fire teams in Vanilla lists. But that is not what is said RAW. So the question is, does this mean we may be reading Stratuscloud wrong, given the precedent that mistakes have been made nesting point on rules, is it not a mistake and TeamPro is useless in sectorials, or is there a third option where we assume inconstant interpretations on the rules?
Welcome to the forum! Actually, it is. Players can only apply this advantage to those units possessing an option with the Fireteam: Duo Special Skill on their Troop Profile. My emphasis. 'this advantage' means that it is referring to the previous bullet point, and only the previous bullet point. For it to refer to the whole Program would require 'Players can only apply TeamPro to those units possessing...' or similar wording.
I would disagree with your interepretation of what is written. I agree that that is the intent, but my interpretation of a dot point list is that anything written in it applies to whatever the list is a sub part of. If it is meant to apply to only the previous point it should have been nested in as a sub point, not a point in the list of attributes of the whole of TeamPro. I suppose I could phrase my point as: the this advantage refered to is TeamPro itself, as the point is in a list of TeamPro's attributes. Scrambling the order of points in a list should ne affect the interpretation of the list, which is what nesting it as a sub point would fix if that is the intent. I supose I should expand on why I'm looking at this: if Stratuscloud is meant to be one and done, why does it have the disposable trait, that allows for reloading? Why not base it more off (for example) the Symbyo-Bombs model, which make it clear that it can't be reloaded as it spends itself and is not listed as disposable.
We had that discussion before Why does Stratuscloud have the Disposable trait if it can't be activated a second time anyway? Perhaps that will help you.
It has to be Option 3. There is no structure you can trust to lead you to the correct conclusion. An understanding of the English Language and grammar will only take you so far. If everyone in your group agrees on a rules interpretation, great. If not, seek out a ruling here. Anything else is just a guess.
I just read that thread and I don’t feel like it reached a very clear conclusion. What is your personal takeaway?
RAW you can't it activate a second time. RAI imo you should be able, otherwise disposable doesn't make sense. But like we see on the changed rules for Tri-core (Video and final Rules), that the rules were hastily stitched together.
So does that mean we are going to have a fractured player base, some playing RAW, others playing RAI and inevitable conflicts when metas on the opposing interpretations meet, or is there a way to get a ruling from CB themselves?
I disagree with your reading anyway, but I've gone back and checked the source file for TeamPro and the wiki is incorrectly showing each line as a separate bullet point. I'll correct this later today, so that it matches the Human Sphere N3 PDF. Because it's one use for the trooper with Statuscloud on it's profile. Disposable is a Trait that's primarily for limiting the uses of an item. Reloading with Baggage is a secondary effect. Disposable isn't on SymbioMon because it's not 'used' by the trooper with the SymbioMon on it's profile.
So, because StratusCloud is Disposable, once you use it you can reload it from a Baggage mule and use it again, like CrazyKoalas or DEPs?
You could reload it, but it can still only be activated once so that would be a wasted order, is my understanding. X-Wing has a similar situation where all devices are disposable, but not all can be affected by a reload.
Given that disposable has other interactions/implications, in that case I would have preferred that that keyword not be present.
Not really a simalr situation, I would point out that X-wing does not have a blanket rule for ordinance to be reloaded, only certain craft have that ability. The ordinance they don't want to be reloadable specifically call it out. So not really a case of a blanket reload rule and then a weird call out saying it can only be used once, even if reloaded. Corvus Belli have precedents for one shot items, and they didn't put the disposable trait on them, so I find it strange that they would use a trait that allows for reuse and then be very vague about putting in a exception, rather than clearly calling it out as an exception to the normal rules regarding the trait when they could have just left it off if thats what they wanted. Another reason that I don't think I've seen anyone answer why this is wierd: it says the player cannot activate it again. Do we seriously think they meant that if you have two models with Stratuscloud you cannot use one now and one later? 'Cause that's the RAW interpretation. I very much feel this is meant to be a sub point clarifying that if you turn it off early you can't turn it back on, ie this instance of the state cannot be activated again, not that the state cannot be reentered if the equipment is reloaded or you have another model with the equipment.
yes, i do think they meant that if you have that model twice you can only have stratuscloud once in your whole game.
I think the Stratuscloud can be reloaded and used multiple times. For pretty much all the reasons given in the other thread. The RAW cannot always be relied on, and this seems to be the case here. House rules until an official ruling is made. IMO, the last cancellation clause is just referring to the instance of the skill currently in use. If the intent was otherwise... I actually wouldn't be surprised, because it's Infinity. Although a good face-palm would be required.
Except Disposable means that once you reload it, you can use it again. And WTF, the example does NOT agree with the text of the rule in Baggage... The Muyib's DEP is not a Perimeter Disposable Weapon, and neither are the Mines! So what the hell?!? If CB wanted a "you can only use it once per game" rule, why didn't they just say it that way? The way it is currently written, I think you CAN reload StratusCloud from Baggage and use the NEW one. You got your one use of the Disposable StratusCloud, it got canceled for whatever reason. Then you reloaded.
Yes and no, Disposable means you have limited uses, with the implication it can be reloaded unless otherwise stated. Uh, the rules for cancelling unloaded are in the grey rules box for baggage, the bit you've quoted is an additional clarification on how to handle Perimeter Weapons. So no, the DEP doesn't follow the Perimeter Weapon rules, and the example is correct. They already have a way, it's called the Disposable Trait. Now, I do agree that the wording isn't clear, IMO it should read that Stratuscloud can't be reloaded, rather than saying it can't be reactivated, but at least there's an attempt at fitting it into the existing rules framework.
That's just for Perimeter Items because they have to immediately be placed on the table. Look slightly further up the page - the main rule for reloading is the final Effect bullet: Moreover, if the bearer of Baggage is in base to base contact with a friendly trooper in the Unloaded state, or who has used part of his Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment, and spends one Short Skill of the Order, it will cancel such state allowing him to recover the complete use of all his Disposable weapons and pieces of Equipment. This effect can only be applied to one friendly trooper per Order.
That's what I get for commenting in a rules thread after ~3 hours of sleep... :facepalm: I still maintain that if you can get a new StratusCloud dispenser-thingy from Baggage, you can use the new one. Reading otherwise says that even if you have multiple models with StratusCloud, you can only ever use one of them.
