I posted this above. The Sixth Sense model doesn't get to shoot until the active model declares an attack (CC or BS, it doesn't matter). They could declare CC immediately, but they also are allowed to hold their ARO thanks to SSL1.
In his example the active model didnt attack. In fact the active model just moved into base 2 base without attacking. The the reactive sixth sense unit was able to shoot at the active model whom was behind him. That is what i was asking about.
Right, that's my second example. You can't use sixth sense to shoot behind you unless you were attacked, but you can use it to delay your ARO until after the opponent's second skill (which might be an attack). I think @Sabin76 just compressed the description a little bit.
Thanks for clearing that up. In you example how is it possible for the SSL1 trooper to shoot? Wouldnt it have to melee? Im asking because the first ARO check happens when the order is spent and the first short skill is declared. At this point there is no ARO. There is an ARO available during the second check and that is when the active trooper cc attacks from b2b. What rule(s) is allowing the SSL1 trooper to fire? **Update: Would that be the delay part?
Everything in the order is considered to be happening simultaneously. Just like when someone moves and then shoots you can can shoot back at any point of that movement not just at the point at which he shoot at you, you can shoot back at someone running up and CC you. Normally if someone comes up from behind you can't shoot then as you won't have LoF until they reach you but SS1 removes that requirement as long you where attacked at any point during the order.
It goes back to the "normal" scenario: 1. Trooper A activates in front of Trooper B and moves into base contact. 2. Trooper B declares BS Attack. This is allowed even though B is now engaged, as documented in several examples. 3. Trooper A declares an Attack against Trooper B, because A isn't trying to get killed. So Sixth Sense from behind 1. Trooper A activates behind Trooper B and moves into base contact. 2. Trooper B delays ARO. 3. Trooper A declares an Attack against Trooper B 4. B declares its ARO. B has Sixth Sense, so is allowed to respond ignoring its facing. If you've looked at Engaged, it looks like the skill declaration restrictions should kick in immediately. Yet that's contradicted by the numerous examples in the book where models shoot back at approaching troops. There's nothing saying "Ignore this for the current ARO step, but enforce it for the next one." In order to lose options when you delay your ARO, additional terms and conditions need to be applied like Camouflage does. (Or like Stealth does, for that matter.)
So its my interpretation that the delay is "winding back the clock" so to speak and making the BS attack possible. Learning the timing in this game is very trick and time consuming. At first I when learning the rules I thought it was intuitive and relative but I don't know any more. The reason I say this is because how the timing of stealth working with the new Stealth FAQ. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/new-faq-stealth.28090/ To me these two conversations are very much a like. I think it would make sense that the reactive trooper from that example in that post (linked above) could shoot the new targets in base to base and not the one in the ZvZ (smoke). I'm not trying to derail this conversation. I'm just making this statement on the convolutedness and nuances of the game rules. I'm guessing the biggest rule there is the "delay" action for the reactive trooper. @solkan I have used engaged once in a game. I have only read the rule books information on the skill. I have not run into any need deeper level of understanding based on complex interactions
The delay works because of the “everything at once” rule. You can choose any point of the enemy’s movement path for your ARO. Even though you are declaring your ARO after already being engaged, you can still choose to take it against a point on their path where you were not yet engaged.
Basically, each order exists in a weird timeframe state where everything that has been declared so far during the order is continually happening for the entire duration of the order. If you stick down a template weapon, this template will exist for the entirety of the order and affect anyone touching it at all points of their movement. When it comes to BS Attacks that aren't template weapons, instead you're shooting from a specific point in the order to a specific point in the order - but not at a specific time. Basically, the order is prepped during the declarations and when it comes time for resolution the units move and troopers execute their attacks with perfect timing. Delaying doesn't in this sense allow you to turn back time so much as it allows you to act on better information and thus prepare your execution better.
I do like how the system works. Its interesting and unique (to my experience) it reminds me of the "stack" from magic the gathering. I know everything happens simotaniously to give us the illusion of no specific timing. To me that is just a trick. Every thing does happen based on time. The system is based on a logical step by step linear process. It is just a whole lot of "if >then" requirements. Some times figuring out the "if > then's" is not clear. What I meant by winding back the clock was that some interactions (skills) "go back" in the series of "if > then" statments and change the logical order of events. This is how I view the timing in the game. If the system was clear the amount of forum posts would be diminished greatly and the FAQ would not be needing to be refreshed all of the time. There would still be question but not as many.
There is timing. It's just in the declaration of skills, not in their execution. That's the real difference.
