Cautious Movement and Stealth

Stealth:

• Allows the user to make Cautious Movements inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.
• A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.

This seems clear to me. What is the part that causes confusion?

 

Probably where Cautious Movement fails entirely if an enemy gains LOF (not ARO), meaning;
Adam the Assassin CM into the back arc of Bob the Backstabbed is about to get backstabbed. Chris is providing Bob with Covering Fire, but can't see Adam's initial position nor behind Bob where Adam is trying to move. Chris can see the space between Adam and Bob.

Since Bob has 360 LOF when Engaged, does Bob gain LOF to Adam when Adam move into Close Combat - even if Bob does not get an ARO due to Chris using Stealth? Will this LOF cause Adam's Cautious Move to fail and thus allow Chris to shoot at Adam?

I think mechanically, Chris gets to shoot Adam because Adam's Cautious Move fails since the rules do not adequately take the 360 LOF in Engaged state into account.

 

clever assassin makes CM to targets back without entering BtB, not giving ARO to anyone. After that he backstabbs. all in rules, all happy.

 

This is not the issue. The issue is that OP attempts to use Cautious Move to move into B2B with trooper A while trying to avoid ARO from trooper B (via Cautious Movement) that only sees a midpoint of said movement, neither starting nor ending point of it.

What I'm saying is that Cautious Movement doesn't help avoiding ARO from trooper B in this scenario because movement ends in LoF of trooper A, which fails to meet a requirement of CM to stop any AROs.

From rules:
"For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must end at a location that is also outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers."

Underlined part is the one I'm referring to.

 

As @Mahtamori pointed out, the OP left out the crucial part, which is that there is a third trooper watching the advance. From the linked thread, though, it sounds like the OP wants @ijw to comment on it and put it to rest.

 

OP asked about generating an ARO from the target. Not from any third trooper.

Since we're bringing a third trooper into it, though... CM provides the general rules that you are all referring to allowing trooper C to gain an ARO. However Stealth provides exceptions to those rules of CM, specifically altering how it works. It seems quite silly to me that CM would be allowed to "function" explicitly reaching base contact, and yet it would be considered to have failed to be a CM at the same time. I don't see how it would make sense for C to get an ARO on A after A successfully performed a Cautious Movement, which A did by virtue of 1) being outside of C's LoF at the end of the movement and 2) Stealth allowing A to be base to base with B at the end of the CM.

Close Combat is already a niche tool that requires a high number of orders to use, I'm not sure why people are always so dead set on gutting any rule that allows CC to function...

 

@macfergusson
I don't see your logic tbh. Stealth does not allow your CM to end in b2b and still generate no ARO as per CM rule.
It only allows 2 unrelated things in the context:

1) To generate no ARO from entering b2b from outside of said trooper's LoF. This effect has absolutely nothing to do with CM.

2) To declare CM in enemy ZoC and successfully generate no ARO from being there. All other requirements of CM to generate no ARO must be fulfilled.

So, my take is:
Trooper A with Stealth enters base contact with trooper B using CM. A midpoint of the movement seen by trooper C.
B cannot declare ARO because the only ground to do so is gaining LoF due to base contact with A, with Stealth explicitly disallowing such ARO.
However, ending movement in base contact still leaves you in LoF, therefore CM provides no extra benefits in terms of avoiding other AROs, thus C can ARO.

I would like to point out that generating no ARO from entering base contact, courtesy of Stealth rule, is not the same as not being in LoF.

I don't see anything in Stealth rule that would allow end you CM in LoF and still have it being successful (and not just avoding ARO from that one trooper you make into base contact with).

Whether or not CC does enough is completely another topic IMO.

 

It literally says precisely that, though:

• A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.

 

@macfergusson
I shall repeat myself:

"as per CM rule"

The trooper you enter in base contact with (trooper B) gets no ARO due to Stealth rule. CM has no bearing in that. But this does not mean it doesn't count as ending your CM in LoF of an enemy. Also remember that even failed CM would not generate ARO from that trooper. This isn't even the point of the argument.

The purpose of CM is to nullify all AROs you would otherwise get due to crossing LoF, which ARO from trooper B isn't.

The purpose of CM in this example is to prevent ARO from trooper C that sees the midpoint of trooper A's movement.

Please quote the part of the Stealth rule that allows you to end your Cautious Movement in LoF of an enemy and still avoid any AROs from crossing enemy LoF as per CM rule.

 

Because otherwise it wouldn't be a Cautious Movement. Stealth is modifying the terms of Cautious Movement to allow this to function. Specific trumping General, and all that.

A Cautious Movement that allows AROs is no longer a Cautious Movement, it's just... movement. What possible reason would there be to declare Cautious Movement (as explicitly stated as possible in Stealth rules) if it didn't prevent AROs?

 

Cautious Movement is declared as such, but in order to generate no AROs it must fulfil certain requirements, with most of them being checked after you have already declared your CM, as it is with most of things in Infinity when it comes to measuring ans checking ZoC, LoF etc.

Basically: you declare it first, including all required info (mainly path of your movement), then measure everything and check possible LoFs and ZoCs (the latter is only relevant for cases when you don't have Stealth, or when units with Sixth Sense are involved since it neuters Stealth), and then, only if all requirements are fulfilled, CM don't generate AROs. If you fail to meet all requirements, then CM effectively work as just some movement... A bad Entire Order movement that leaves you open for AROs.

There are three main requirements which must be fulfilled, or CM fails, turning into "just movement":
- to be out of ZoC of any enemies for entire movement (lifted by Stealth unless enemy has SS);
- to be out of LoF of any enemies at the end of your movement;
- to be able to reach declared destination. Curious one, since you must point exactly where you want to end up and if you don't have enough MOV, you don't just stop your movement earlier, but you also fail CM, losing it anti-ARO properties.

If you declare Cautious Movement and want to end up in base contact with enemy, then you know in advance it will fail because condition 2 is not fulfilled that way. Stealth will prevent that enemy from declaring ARO if he doesn't see you until you reach base contact, but your CM will not prevent all those AROs from onlookers that see a midpoint of your movement.

 

Agreed.

Yes.

Right.

Ya lost me here. If you're declaring CM knowing for a fact that it will fail, what possible reason would you have to do that? Stealth prevents you from taking an ARO from the trooper you are going base to base with, with a regular movement from behind his facing, you don't need CM.

Your interpretation of this rule interaction makes it literally completely useless.

 

Who said that CM was even supposed to be used to enter base contact with enemy? If you want to make use of CM to deliver yourself into melee, come close to your target without touching it, then Move+stab it with your next order. Or just move and tie it in Engagement. There, done.

Only in this particular situation, and only if you want to cross enemy firelane and tie your target in one order. There are still plently of uses for CM, both related to Engagements and not.

 

The rules text under Stealth.

 

Under the pretext of dealing with three troopers, Stealth still does not allow you to use CM to avoid AROs unless you end your Move in BtB with both enemy troopers. Just one is not enough.

Melee is still in a poor place in this game, but as much as I'd want it to work better I still can't get the rules to work differently in this case.

 

So you believe that if Trooper B wasn't there, CM would be valid, or if Trooper C wasn't there, CM would be valid, but because Trooper C WOULD have gotten an ARO if it wasn't a CM declaration, what Stealth makes functional is now not-functional. I don't see how that makes sense at all. Stealth explicitly describes using CM to go base to base with an enemy, but under the interpretation you guys are claiming there would never be a situation in which you would want to do this, because it would ALWAYS either fail, or be completely redundant to a normal Move declaration.

 

No, CM fails to prevent any AROs because you violate one of its requirements, it's just that in Mahtamori's example where you enter b2b with both enemies (one that sees you and one that doesn't) all AROs are prevented by Stealth itself, saving the day even though CM fails to do so. Nothing left for CM to prevent thanks to

If C wasn't there at all, you wouldn't need CM. If there wasn't B, you could sneak past C (right through his LoF) using CM.

Or you could stop without touching B provided he doesn't see you at the end of the movement, slipping past C, then ented in base contact with B on your next order without C interfering.

 

Okay okay, back up a bit.

The assumption is that C can see the final position of A. So if B wasn't there, then CM would fail. If B is there, but not blocking sufficiently, then CM also fails.

If A's final position is in BtB with B and such that C can't draw LOF to 3x3mm* of A and neither B nor C can see A's initial position, then CM will be valid.

* Since there by definition can't be reciprocal LOF here, then the full 3x3mm requirement must be met, which gives more leeway to hide behind enemies in Engaged - essentially requiring a significant high-ground advantage for C.

 

I disagree. Stealth does not lift "no LoS from anyone to your final position" requirement from Cautious Movement. B would not be able to declare ARO against A because of Stealth rule itself, but CM would fail to prevent further AROs, in this case that would be ARO from C.

If A is not in B2B with B at the end with CM, then you're right, and that's possibly useful trick.