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Speculo and close combat

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Rift, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Rift

    Rift New Member

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    righto, so I'm very new to infinity. I'm struggling to understand aro vs impersonation marker into combat.

    Please walk me through the following scenario...


    My Speculo killer is in Impersantion marker state...spends short order to walk into base to base With an enemy troop. ( I engage him from behind so outside of its LOF).... With the second part of the order I declare a cc attack.

    What AROs can the enemy model declare?
     
  2. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    CC Attack, Dodge[, Jammer - Nope, this not! Sorry].

    Apply Surprise Attack and MA at will.
     
    #2 tox, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Not Jammer, the Speculo has stealth and moved into b2b out of LoF.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Stealth

    • If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state.
     
  4. Rift

    Rift New Member

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    Even tho the Speculo has stealth? And is outside of LOF? The enemy can still cc back?
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The target has LoF as soon as you enter CC,this allows them to CC Attack back if you declare a non-movement skill.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Line_of_Fire_(LoF)

    LoF of Figures in CC
    Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.
     
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  6. Rift

    Rift New Member

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    Ok great. Thank you for clearing that up
     
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  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The enemy will CC Attack at -9 (MA3 means +3 to you and -3 to the enemy, and Surprise Attack imposes a -6), however, and inflicting a single wound means killing the target directly, I think they cannot declare dodge/Change Facing but check that on the Surprise Attack entry.

    Usually she will wreck a single thing, then die... if you can wreck more, then it's even better!
     
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Usually it's better to shoot things with a Boarding Shotgun, but against TAGs and other hard targets CC definitely works ;)
     
  9. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    If you want to get into CC without ARO - use Cautious Movement. But with the next order to Attack you will lose -6 Bonus for Surprise. Also this cannot be done against targets with SS2 for sure (Not sure about SS1)
     
  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure what that is supposed to accomplish. Speculo has Stealth so he can just move freely outside of LoF. If he hadn't, he couldn't declare CM in enemy ZoC anyway.

    In other scenarios, if you end up in B2B with Cautious Movement, you are in LoF at the end of the movement, therefore it does you no good in terms of avoiding any AROs.

    What do you mean? SS has no interaction with CM. If we are talking Stealth, then yes, it is negated. Also, any level of SS negates Surprise Attack.

    I am so very confused by your suggestion, to be honest.
     
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  11. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    Here is Stealth Rulling

    STEALTH AUTOMATIC SKILL
    CC Special Skill, Optional.
    REQUIREMENTS
    • The user of this Special Skill must be in his Active Turn.
    EFFECTS
    • Allows the user to make Cautious Movements inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.
    • A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.
    • However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO.
    • If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state
    So i am talking about using cautios movement to enter BtB with the target, if some other enemy models are watching the path. So they wont get an ARO , as they dont see you, and the target wont get an ARO (unless it has SS). Thats a very specific option, but its good to know it.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Cautious_Movement
    CAUTIOUS MOVEMENT ENTIRE ORDER
    Movement, No LoF, No Roll.
    REQUIREMENTS
    • At the moment of declaration, the user must be outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers.
    EFFECTS
    • Allows the user to move up to the first value of his MOV Attribute, generating no AROs to enemies in the process.
    • For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must end at a location that is also outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers.
    • When you declare Cautious Movement, you can measure the distance to your intended destination to see if this Entire Order Skill is viable. If it is not, the trooper follows its declared route, but does not enjoy the other benefits of Cautious Movement, so enemies might ARO as usual.
    • You cannot use Cautious Movement inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.
    • Cautious Movement must follow the General Movement rules as well as the Moving and measuring sidebar, both of which are explained in the Move Common Skill rules.
    Emphasis mine: since the movement ends B2B with the target, I think the enemies the Speculo won't engage in B2B will get an ARO, unless you did a move+move B2B.
     
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  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Again, CM must end outside of LoF for all enemies, otherwise it fails. Meaning, CM that ends in B2B with an enemy never does what CM is supposed to do (remember, Engaged models have 360° LoF).

    Quote from the rule:

    • For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must end at a location that is also outside theLoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers.
     
  14. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    And here is a part from Stealth.

    A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.

    So if you end up moving with CM into Back Ark of the Target - it wont get any ARO. And if some one is watching a gap in this path - this is a very nice option, cause they wont shoot you, while you get into BtB with the target. Its good against TAG or S5 or more Targets so you can use Target's size against it to cover your approach.
     
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  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    This is more clear. From your previous posts it sounded like the other enemies could see the whole path (or at least the end point) and therefore cancel all effects of CM. Which is why people were arguing with you :).
     
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  16. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    ...they will still ARO because CM failed because there is a LoF from at least one enemy by the end of that move (one you're in base contact with). Even if said enemy doesn't aro himself due to Stealth.

    Edit: To clarify further, CM doesn't work on "per enemy unit" basis. You must outmaneuver all potential AROs, otherwise it will save you from none and it fails completely.

    CM into base contact never does anything CM is supposed to do. Ever.

    Like I said many times, stop using common sense, it doesn't work in the world of RAW :)
     
    #16 Barrogh, Jan 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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  17. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    Ok. A I'm lazy to draw a situation, so you gonna rely on my bad Russian English :)

    Speculo is behind the corner of a building. 2 inches away is a TAG. He does not face and see the Speculo. Also there is some trooper, 10 inches away , that is watching the gap between corner and TAG. He also can't see speculo now.
    If Speculo just move into BTB with the TAG, other trooper can shoot her. So if TAG survives the attack, mostlikely you want have another chance to attack.
    So Speculo CMs into btb with the TAG, and TAG silhouette also blocks LOF to her for the other Trooper.
    Speculo didn't validated any CM requirements and didn't provide an ARO
     
  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    After looking at it again, it seems @Barrogh has the right of it. While stealth allows you to reach b2b without provoking an ARO from the trooper that you reached b2b contact with, it does not remove the fact that the trooper now has LoF to you, thus removing all benefits from CM because of this clause:
    • For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must end at a location that is also outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers.
     
  19. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why that confuses you.
    There are two clauses for that in Stealth rule, both of them are there to make you able to stealthily hug your target when nothing else interferes (or when you are okay with chancing a normal roll against you). It has nothing to do with a scenario when somebody uses Cautious Movement for the purposes it was specifically not intended for.

    Well, to me it's pretty clear:

    "For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must end at a location that is also outside the LoF and the Zone of Control of all enemy figures and Markers."

    The latter emphasis is mine. In your scenario you end up in LoF of an enemy trooper, therefore Cautious Movement does generate AROs as if it was a normal movement or something.

    But I'm typing this for the third time already :unamused:

    ------------------

    Anyway, back on actual practice:

    If you're in situation described above and you really want that base contact because target warrants a mono to the face, you can:

    1) Smoke the area, then walk into BtB;
    2) Move in BtB then Smoke as FtF against an ARO (less orders if you're within 4 inches of your target but more risky); (not a correct play because making an Attack will cause the target to react)
    3) Something else?

    Otherwise you can just shotgun against Change Facing ARO. Or lay mine around the corner and then shotgun (works with Fidays, although not with Speculos).
     
    #20 Barrogh, Jan 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018