Greetings everyone, I have a couple questions regarding Sixth Sense rule as written (RAW) and was wondering if these quirks were intended or not. We had previously been playing Sixth Sense similarly to "If you are attack, you have 360 vision", but the wording clearly does not always reflect this. I present you some corner cases (which happens quite frequently) that don't seem to have the resolution we would've thought. If you could let me know if our new found interpretations are right or wrong it would be much appreciated. Thank you very much for your time! - - - - - - - - - - First example / question A Desperadoes, in his Reactive Turn, is facing away from a fearsome Krakot Renegade, who declares a BS Attack with his Chain Rifle—a Direct Template weapon—against the Desperadoes. (Before someone points it out, we can assume that the Krakot first Idled, the Desperadoes delayed and then the Krakot declared his BS Attack, it's beside the point.) Can the Desperadoes use a BS Attack with his Boarding Shotgun against the Krakot? Doing so would not be a Face to Face Roll (as the Krakot is using a Template Weapon) and therefore doesn't fall under the first bullet point of Sixth Sense L1. Second example / question A Desperadoes, in his Reactive Turn, is facing away from a fearsome Krakot Renegade, who declares a BS Attack with his Submachine Gun. Can the Desperadoes use a BS Attack with his Chain Riffle against the Krakot? Doing so would not be a Face to Face Roll (as the Desperadoes is using a Template Weapon) and therefore doesn't fall under the first bullet point of Sixth Sense L1. Third example / question A Desperadoes, in his Reactive Turn, is facing away from the mighty Oniwaban Shinobu Kitsune, who declares a short movement skill, moving into Base to Base contact with the Desperadoes. The Desperadoes declares he will delay his action (Sixth Sense cancels the effect of stealth from Shinonu's Martial Arts). Shinobu then declares a CC Attack using her Monofilament Sword. Can the Desperadoes use a BS Attack against Shinobu? Her attack was declared while in Base to Base, making the attack in LoF of the Desperadoes and thereforde doesn't fall under the first bullet point of Sixth Sense L1. - - - - - - - - - - Here are some of the links to rules and points that are the core of the questions. Sixth Sense http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Sixth_Sense Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user. When attacked with a template weapon from outside his LoF but within his ZoC, the user may ignore the -3 MOD to Dodge a template from outside his LoF. In the Reactive Turn, Sixth Sense L1 allows its user to delay his ARO declaration until after the declaration of the second Short Skill of the enemy inside his Zone of Control. Face to face rolls http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls Close Combat Declaration http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/CC_Attack_Declaration For a troop to declare a CC Attack either in its Active Turn or Reactive Turn, it needs to: Be using a CC Weapon, or a Skill or piece of Equipment capable of a CC Attack. Be in base to base contact with an enemy. The player must make sure to meet all Requirements before activating the troop and declaring the CC Attack. LoF and Base to Base http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Line_of_Fire_(LoF) Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.
The easy one first, because the other two require effort to look up the evidence... Is there an English dialect issue on the grammar in that bullet point? "even without LoF" doesn't make being outside of LoF a requirement, it says that you can do it whether or not it's "without LoF". Edit: So I think you can declare BS Attack against it while it's coming in. But from looking stuff up, that may be less well established than I thought it was. :(
3rd Example: As the Desperados delayed his ARO he is now in B2B and can only attack with CC, not BS. Engaged: (http://infinitythewiki.com/de/Engaged) This state activates when the trooper is in base contact with an enemy trooper. Troopers in Engaged state are considered to be in Close Combat (CC). For this reason, they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, as Reset.
He can of course reply to the attack if he is in LoF, he doesn't even need the Sixth Sense rule to do so. The point I am questioning is that he can only reply when Attacked: "to Attacks (and only Attacks)" There was no point where he was Attacked out of BtB to grant him the right to ARO prior to be engaged (with shooting for example). Once attacked (with or without Sixth Sense), he can respond to the attack, but the only ARO valids are BtB ARO: Dodge, Close Combat, Reset.
For proof that I wasn't completely off my rocker on the 3rd example: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/sixth-sense-and-cc-in-the-rear-arc-zero-vis-zone.960/ Thanks Google caching that page... This question: This shook loose from a recent game, there was enough contention regarding the correct answer, figured might as well let the IJK/Palanka duo have a stab at it and hopefully earn a [Solved]. Situation was an impersonator passing their infiltration role and entering CC with a model with Sixth Sense. The things we knew regarding a user of Sixth Sense in this case: User can respond Face to Face User Ignores the Surprise Attack penalty The impersonator is revealed for the entire order the moment the first short skill is declared that reveals the model However, what we weren't sure of exactly what the target can respond with, specifically if they could use a BS attack, or if they were limited to CC. The confusion arose from the first bullet: Quote Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user. The wording can be interpreted such that the reactive player is responding to the attack, not the order. If that is the case, then the hapless target would be locked into CC, as the attack only happens the moment that they enter base contact. However, if the intent of the wording is to indicate that the Sixth Sense user effectively has a 360 visor within their ZOC, it would allow the target to use a BS (or template) attack as the now-revealed impersonator charges into CC. Any wisdom you guys have on the subject would be appreciated! with this answer: The impersonator moved into base contact with the model, revealing itself for the entire order. That means that anyone (even models without Sixth Sense) would be able to shoot at before it made base contact if facing the proper direction. In other words, the expected sequence is: Order spent to activate Impersonator Impersonator declares Move into base contact Reactive model who happens to be facing in the right direction declares ARO shoot at the Impersonator along its movement path Impersonator declares surprise attack (The more elaborate version of this example is provided on page 82, EXAMPLE OF IMPERSONATION AND BASE TO BASE CONTACT). So all Sixth Sense is doing is removing the requirement to be facing in the proper direction (on top of allowing the Sixth Sense model to delay its AROdeclaration) so the Sixth Sense model gets to do Order spent to activate Impersonator Impersonator declares Move into base contact Reactive model who happens to be facing in the right direction declares ARO shoot at the Impersonator along its movement path Impersonator declares surprise attack Sixth Sense chooses to declare ARO now, and can declare ARO shoot at the Impersonator along its movement path got marked as correct in the now show down forum. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/31799-solved-sixth-sense-vs-cc-attacks/ Edit: Link to cache if that's stable: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ense-vs-cc-attacks/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Ah, so your point of the "even without LoF" does come into account. He's replying via that line and that grants him the right to respond "regardless the facing of the user". Which allows him to shoot. Consequently... If a trooper (Blue in image) starts behind a model, moves in front as first part of the order. Then shoot him from in front of him. The SSL2 Trooper (Red in image) could shoot him at a point that was previously out of his LoF. https://prnt.sc/mkptb5
In your diagram, it shows the model crossing the front arc. That's not required for Sixth Sense. If the active model was in the front arc (and this in line of fire) or crossed into the front arc, troopers without Sixth Sense would be able to ARO BS Attack against the Move. My claim to you is that Sixth Sense lets you ARO BS Attack against the active trooper even though it was outside of the front arc the whole time. So you're declaring the BS Attack ARO against the attack ignoring that you're facing the wrong direction to do it.
Incorrect. That would mean troopers could not ARO with BS attack when another trooper did short skill move => second skill cc attack to them.
Are you arguing that a unit can ARO with a BS attack to a unit outside their Line of Fire if the unit moves into base to base contact?
There are some situations that Sixth Sense will allow you to do this in, as in the OP's example, but by default, no. Delaying an ARO with Sixth Sense doesn't mean that you're forced to only declare AROs that are valid if you're engaged if the enemy only moved into base on the current order.
Moving into base contact is irrelevant. What's relevant is that the attack was declared in the trooper's ZoC. Sixth Sense allows the trooper to respond to the Attack ignoring which direction the trooper is facing. If the trooper had been facing in the right direction without Sixth Sense, it would be able to declare a BS Attack ARO. Therefore, because you ignore facing, the BS Attack targeting the active model before it reaches base contact is valid.
Anyway... concerning the use of template or other non-Face-to-Face attacks as AROs for Sixth Sense... http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/42223-sixth-sense-and-direct-template/#comment-797007 with cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...nd-direct-template/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Question: Can't find appropriate topic 4+ man link is being shot from out on visibility arc with direct template (Chain Rifle for example). They can dodge without -3 penalty thanks to SS lvl 2. But can they shoot back? Because it won't be a FtF. Thanks for answers! Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user. Answer: Yes, you can. The wording assumes you're being shot with a traditional BS attack weapon (rifle, etc). Corroborating witness testimony: #100 That bullet point really ends up being Allows the user to respond to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control as if the user were facing in any desired direction. (And probably something about visibility zones, too. ) The "Face to Face Roll" part is bad wording. So's the "without LoF to the attacker" bit, because you're still not allowed to shoot a Combi-Rifle through total cover when you get shot by a guided missile.
The attack does not occur outside of the models Line of Fire because figures engaged in CC can draw a 360 degree LoF, but only to models they are in base contact with, but being in the Engaged state limits what AROs can be used, so unless Line of Fire was established before the unit with Sixth Sense was Engaged, it would be limited in its response, and Sixth Sense does not grant Line of Fire. BS attacks can be taken at any point along a movement, so if the enemy unit moving into the Engaged state shot, then the Sixth Sense model would be able to respond with a BS attack, but a CC attack can only be made when in the Engaged state, so no attack occurred outside of the Sixth Sense Unit's Line of Fire.
Is this the bullet point you are referring to?: Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoFto the attacker and regardless the facing of the user. If so, it only says they may respond with a face to face roll. CC is a face to face roll, so is dodge. This bullet does not say you may ignore the ARO restrictions of due to being engaged.
@nehemiah sure, but as in OP's example, we're talking about a situation where the active model only moved into base on the current order.
@Hecaton that the unit just moved into Base to Base does not matter. No Line of Fire was established before the 2 units were engaged, and the attack was not made before the 2 units were engaged, so the Sixth Sense Unit could still only respond with AROs which are allowed while Engaged. It being an attack inside their ZoC does not allow them to ignore other restrictions, such as those ARO restrictions imposed by being Engaged.
@nehemiah no LoF is needed because sixth sense allows the user to void that requirement, similar to a Jammer.
Sixth Sene rules are written like garbage The F2F clause is using F2F colloquially and realistically means "may respond too, and if this would normally trigger a F2F, does so here as well" And the LOF means "May respond regardless of facing of the user" have fun chewing over it with everyone else if you want but this has been discussed ad nauseam
@Hecaton Jammer has different rules and Sixth Sense does not say it works like Jammer, so it should not be brought up in this context to infer that they work the same, otherwise we will have people thinking that Sixth Sense Units can shoot hackers who attack them from the other side of a wall. Moving is not an attack, so Sixth Sense would not allow the unit to shoot the enemy unit if it moves outside of its Line of Fire or even if it moves into base to base contact. CC attack can only be made while engaged, so at no point can a BS attack be made because no Attack was made before the units were Engaged.
