Who said anything about speculative fire? I use them as a close range ARO. Isolating the Active model usually leaves them over extended and unable to spend any more orders, easy pickings for your own Active turn! 10% better chance to hit, plus higher damage, plus ignoring the ARM/BTS bonus for cover. In the reactive turn I like to leave Santiagos and Domaru near corners to ambush enemies (supported by other AROs, as normal), the EM is usually their best choice for a 0-8" ARO due to the reasons above (stranding over extended Rambos, higher chance of doing something). I find EM grenades more useful for area denial AROs than Active Turn attacking, though hurling them over walls at REMs and TAGs is always a good time.
A better question is why mindlessly change things? The game and points are currently balanced around Religious functioning the way it does. It doesn't really do much – but thats not necessarily a bad thing
I'm not sure I understand why you think that either this is a "mindless change" or that "the game and points are currently balanced around Religious" when I've presented evidence that this is not true, and you have not. I'd appreciate it if you're keep your comments civil, aimed at the ideas, and provide some backing rationale. Mike earlier in the thread, which was the context of the discussion. Those bonuses already appear to be baked into the results.
Where have presented evidence that Religious is not properly balanced? I would like to see the scope of your presentation, and look over the evidence and argument that you have presented. Part of the reason for my concern is that you started off suggesting that the way to fix all Religious troops was to give them a benefit that currently some Religious troops possess, which gives the impression that your concerns are for a specific subset of Religious that you're not disclosing as part of this discussion.
Mike's calculations were for active turn, comparing a burst 3 pistol to a burst 2 EM grenade. A Domaru in ARO vs a OS with combi at 0-8" is 27% chance to wound with a pistol vs 48% to inflict Isolated with an EM grenade, a very significant increase in odds of winning.
As Section 9 wrote: this. (However, while Keisotsu might feel like they are overpriced compared to Metros, it's actually the other way around. Take a gander at the HMG profiles)
First post, OS vs Securitate. Assuming that there is a points formula, the Securitate and OS are exactly the same cost for virtually identical stat lines, with the exception of +2 CC for the OS. Securitate have Vet L1, OS have Religious. Further the cost for the OS has not changed from N2-N3 despite the benefits provided by Religous decreasing in the case of LoL. Do you think that +2 CC & Religious is the same as Vet L1? I'm assuming that +2 CC is a fluff stat boost at best, since it never comes up. I'm assuming that a points formulate means I just need to demonstrate this one place for it to prove the point. Is there something else I need to do to provide you with proof?
whats your "evidence"? that you want Order Seargants to be better? That you want an inherent and intended weakness of military orders to become a non-issue?
I've presented it a few times now, what is your standard for evidence here? The fact that I have presented some makes your ad homenium of "mindless changes" moot, and you've yet to provide a reasonable rationale that explains the difference, or justifies the statement that "the game is currently balanced around Religious". I'm guessing since you continue to attack me, and not provide evidence that you have none.
So – just to be sure – your argument is that because Order Seargents are about ~1 overcosted when compared to a different line troop in a different faction, all religious troops need to be Veteran 1. or at least continue to grant regular orders in a LoL situation. Is this your "evidence"?
You take a complaint about the point cost of your models, add a hyperbolic complaint presumably caused by failing a bunch of ‘Common Sense’ (reverse guts rolls) on religious models, and then decide that the best course of action is to campaign for a change to Religious. You do this in a thread that you start out claiming is “Just some harmless rules speculation, for a possible N4, whenever that occurs.” And you completely ignore the fact that Morats have religious, that the MAF players have gripes about point costs.. Congratulations. You have what may or may not be a valid complaint about point values, and you’re using it to campaign for an albatross.
Pretty sure a BS10 HMG, even in a link team, isn't worth more than that... But SWC is one of the army balance hand-adjustments, so we're not likely to get it fixed. Man, I remember when all Keisotsu SWC was 0.5! :old man:
And pretty much guaranteed your opponent was expecting you to chuck back a chain rifle or pistol shot.
I mostly find it weird that veteran lets you generate regular orders in LOL. I mean, if you only have one veteran and go into LOL, you now have a regular order you can spend on your non-veteran units, in addition to their irregular orders. But the veteran receives no bonus. From a fluff perspective it would work better if veteran allowed you to use irregular orders from other models as if they were regular. Maybe only when in LOL, maybe all game. "As the LT goes down the veterans continue the mission, not getting disorganized by the loss of orders and commands". Yes, I understand it would need to be costed differently and that it will not happen, just dreaming a bit over here
A fluff justification is that the Veterans are not panicking, and are telling the other troopers what to do.
Well, religious trooper could find guidance in their faith and use it to help their fellow troopers! "Worry not, friend! While it is unfortunate that our Lieutenant met its demise, the Lord still guides us! This way, to victory! Deus Vult!" Jokes aside, it could be interesting to have some skill interact with religious troop in this regard. Something like "religious troop L2: in case of loss of lieutenant, all units with the religious troop skill and within ZoC of one unit with this skill remain regulars". Maybe give it to father-knights if you want to buff the order sergeants. Not that i think they need it, but it would be fun and thematic.
Why do you say they're 1 pt overcosted? Are you saying it's 1 pt per CC, and religious is "free"? Also you're missing that the effectively gave Vet L1 regular orders in N2, and during the transition to N3 this went away, and the price of the unit was not adjusted.
